Anyone else who hates Wal-Mart - check this out!

[jmjj215]

Thank you Missouri Mom, for showing people that you can do it with hard work.

[PrincessPerky]

Mom-from-missouri,

Congrats on your successes, I am sorry it wasn't easier, but then life isn't. You made the best of what you had, and still are. I am sure you are teaching your kids that hard work pays off, you have a house, and looking at a new one with more land, many would love that chance, and you made it by hard work, not govt handouts. I wish I was working a bit smarter before I married. I always was a slow learner but from you and others on this site I am finally learning.


VJW,

Sigh, if your going to take the govt word for us being broker now than last year or whenever, then I leave you to your opinion. But I again ask for concrete examples, since just about every welfare household I know has cable, at least half smoke, disposable diapers, and many other conveniences my Grandma would have loved in her day, beer or other form of drug regularly, plenty of clothes to dress three similar families, and many other luxuries. Yes they seem to have trouble paying the bills (and I remember when I had 3 jobs to do it) but raising the minimum wage will not help. I personally see nothing wrong with lowering the standard of living (though again it hasn't IME, and still waiting for what we on average are missing out on). I would love to see less kids spoiled on McDees and 50 pairs of shoes. Not to mention less dependance on the TV as a babysitter, and less assumption that a store is ALWAYS a place to get a new gift, window shopping is dead.

The 5 dollars vs 2 is in comparison to what the sweeping floor is worth, people used to pay underage kids or older kids, or 'disabled' people to do simple tasks so the better paid people could do the more 'skilled' labor (in quotes cause making a burger isn't that skilled, but more than a few people can't handle it) instead of paying the kid 2 bucks (or less) they add the simple job to the trained persons duty, with NO pay raise. And whenever anyone complains about a pay raise the big ole company can say 'well if the govt thought you deserved one you would get one from them' humph. No govt decides what I get paid.

Now I will agree that a lot of well paying jobs are heading overseas, I see that as a direct result of the govt interference. My DHs salary is about half what it costs the company to hire him, the rest is in silly govt fees, taxes, and miscelaneous HR people just to make sure he doesn't forget that purple polkadotted people are people too. (not prejudiced, just saying it is costing us, the risk of his job leaving is VERY REAL) However the number of low wage jobs around here is VERY HIGH, I could easily pick up half a dozen in one day by walking door to door.

AND again I state ATTITUDE means so much more than govt rules and regulations, if voluntary is dead here in America we need to resurect it, fast. No I do not think we can change big buisness, and when it comes to safety sorry we will have to step in, but when it comes to money, well if you can't keep good workers you can't make a good sale or product (I do not shop Kmart, because all Kmart employees I have ever met were rude and acted like I was crazy to excpect them to help) I do not shop several grocery stores because I hate the dirty floors and out of date stock. All of this is due to simple easy to fix things if the buisnesses would look into it, and in my area I have recently noticed that my local grocery store opened up a new store under a new name, and did major remodeling and training, so far, cleaner stores, might go shop there again.

We will not resurect voluntary by more rules and regulations, here is an excerpt written by me slightly geared torward education but the concept still applies, just replace parents in the first paragraph with J. worker:

"BTW there are more and more parents assuming the govt knows best everyday, the longer we assume parents can't do the job, the more they... well ... can't.

Best example I can give is parents, we often assume our children are not capable of something, then they have to do it, weather grandma thinks they can and asks, or they are alone for a moment and try, or some other reason, all of the sudden wham, they prove themselves capable of reaching a counter, putting on shoes, reading a big book, whatever. The older a child gets the less they tend to surprise parents with new abilities, why? Because we have assumed for longer and longer that they can't. Now some parents are rather good at letting their kids try new things, not that they make them, just that they let them try, some are downright certain that their kid can't and find themselves with a child who wont, even when by all accounts they should be able to. Most fall in-between. "

Stop expecting the govt to decide what your time is worth, most of the people running the govt have no idea! they have never done 'real job' anyway!

Also you might want to check out quoteland.com, they have a debate board and last I was there they are pretty active and have people on most sides of the fence, so plenty of people to debate with. (the only side of the fence missing last I checked was mine .) Anyway while I love to debate, I honestly don't have time , so I leave you to your opinions now in peace. ('sides some here don't like debate, and I think we should leave the heavy debate for those who do like it)

[VJW]

Originally Posted by PrincessPerky

if your going to take the govt word for us being broker now than last year or whenever

But, of course, it's not just the "govt word", is it ?

But I again ask for concrete examples

But I gave you "concrete examples" of the vast majority of American worker's wages going backwards.

since just about every welfare household I know has cable, at least half smoke, disposable diapers, and many other conveniences my Grandma would have loved in her day, beer or other form of drug regularly, plenty of clothes to dress three similar families, and many other luxuries.

When the largest federal expenditures are for the Military Industrial Complex, Corporate Welfare, and interest on the Reagan/Bush federal debt, enlightening that you've fallen for the propaganda.

Yes they seem to have trouble paying the bills (and I remember when I had 3 jobs to do it) but raising the minimum wage will not help.

Of course it will "help", as history has proven.

I'm not quite sure what to make of the remainder of your assumptions.

#

[paulmish]

VJW - Your grasp of concrete knowledge amazes and delights me! All of the points you made about the US standard of living, and the facts about minimum wage are topics I know very well, but I do not have the statistics, because I am too darned busy doing other things.

Jesse - I'm very surprised that you did not know about the standard of living elsewhere in the world. The US has the dumb idea (speaking generally) that we are THE BEST!! Why is that necessarily true (aside from our abundant natural resources)? It's just .... one big ad campaign... Women are treated with far more respect in Europe - one of the reasons I look forward to living there someday. I don't know if VJW mentioned this, but we have, I believe, one of the WORST records for daycare support in the industrialized world - yeah, we're all a bunch of cowboys, and the "little lady" shouldn't be out working away, right? I completely blame the "moral minority" for that hooey. I'll earn any of you guys under the table...

Of course poverty will never be erradicated - anyone with the slightest knowledge of human nature knows that. But that doesn't each one of us can't help someone by doing the right thing. Since when does a problem have to have a complete solution to merit some effort? We'll never eliminate murder either, right?

As far as the standard of living in general in the US, yes it's incredibly high. That's what makes refusing to share the wealth even more abhorant.

One more thought: If millions of people can contribute only by doing manual labor, or non-skilled labor, does that mean that they should be our eternal slaves, never getting a fair shake or getting ahead because they can't fight for themselves? If you had brothers and sisters, and one was mentally handicapped, would you deprive them of the comforts of life because they can't "earn" it, like the rest of you?

[mom-from-missouri]

As much as we complain, we must all remember the countries that are in worse shape than we are, where some people get buy with nothing. I have a friend who came from a very poor village in Africa. She can not get over how much Americans waste. They had 3 families in one hut, no running water or electric and cooked outside, no shoes, and each person only had 2 sets of clothes, no books.... Here, we waste clean water, one family to a house, average family has 2 cars... Her family all got minimum wage jobs when they camer to America, and thought they were rich. Her husband, children, her parents and his parents all live in the same house - which I will add, they paid for within 5 years on 4 adults working minimum wage. They have had no government assistance. The only 'charity' they got was several of our church families took them used furniture and some canned goods before they got here to their rental house so they would not be setting up housekeeping in an empty house. The husband also mows lawns and shovels snow. The wife also cleans on her days off for a local doctor. They think most Americans are wasteful, and lazy for only working 40 hours a week. They have no TV, and use the library faithfully. They have a garden, and can't understand why everyone doesn't, since we have such good soil and garden hoses. Its all in the attitude.

[jmjj215]

If you had brothers and sisters, and one was mentally handicapped, would you deprive them of the comforts of life because they can't "earn" it, like the rest of you?

I'm talking about able people during my posts. Being disabled is entirely different.

yeah, we're all a bunch of cowboys, and the "little lady" shouldn't be out working away, right? I completely blame the "moral minority" for that hooey

What moral minority? 26% of women work full-time and have kids under the age of 18. 74% work either part-time or not at all. And since when is staying home with kids not work!?

Europe is a wonderful place, full of TONS of culture, and having lived there for two years, I can tell you I thoroughly enjoyed it. However, they have this feeling of entitlement there that I just can't get past. It cripples them economically.

VJW:

largest federal expenditures are for the Military Industrial Complex

Sorry, but I'm never going to get upset about having a strong military.

The husband also mows lawns and shovels snow. The wife also cleans on her days off for a local doctor. They think most Americans are wasteful, and lazy for only working 40 hours a week. They have no TV, and use the library faithfully. They have a garden, and can't understand why everyone doesn't, since we have such good soil and garden hoses. Its all in the attitude.

What a great example. America's laziness will be its downfall. And government policy promotes laziness.

[singinjeannie]

I love Walmart. I am not envious of the rich, (Sam). He's making smart decisions to keep his company up and running and if the majority of American's don't like it, they don't have to shop there.

Obviously, the majority of American's DO like Walmart, or it wouldn't be so successful.

The unions are really mad at Walmart because they've been unsuccessful in unionizing that store and if they could get their hands on a portion of the wages of every person who worked at Walmart -- Ohhhhh -- what a great take THAT would be. They'd get millions in new revenue to spend on their political agenda.

This "Corporate America" is evil garbage makes me sick. BTW -- I am in no way rich myself, but I understand that I have choices to make and if I'd have had a great idea like Sam did and started a business and worked my butt off at that business, I might just be rich. If I'd have stayed in college and gotten a good degree -- I might be rich. We all make decisions and it's not Sam's fault I'm not wealthy.

If Walmart mis-treats it's employees so badly, then they'd quit and find other work. Don't give me the BS about there being no jobs available. Perhaps some towns are not doing as well as others, but overall, there are jobs to be found. There are stores around here that pay $7 - $8 an hour, starting wage, for unskilled labor. My DH is a manager and he has unskilled labor jobs that start at $8 an hour. If people want to earn more than that -- they need to make an effort to learn a skill and make themselves more valuable.

I wasn't going to respond to this thread as so much of it is just BS, but it just ticks me off so bad that people are so envious of the successful. Let's all be like Europe and become a socialist country where the government tells every business just how it has to be run. Then we'll all be wonderfully mediocre. Yipppppeeeee!

[VJW]

Originally Posted by jmjj215

Europe is a wonderful place, full of TONS of culture, and having lived there for two years, I can tell you I thoroughly enjoyed it. However, they have this feeling of entitlement there that I just can't get past. It cripples them economically.

Then why do we have just as high Unemployment as Europe, but they have national health care and a higher Standard of Living ?

Sorry, but I'm never going to get upset about having a strong military.

What's that got to do overspending ? I'll repeat what a former military general has stated. I'm for spending whatever it takes on the military to protect this nation, but NOT A PENNY MORE.

#

[jmjj215]

national health care and a higher Standard of Living

Their health care is awful. You get what you pay for - BELIEVE ME when I say that. I had plenty of experiences in Germany with their health care system. It's a joke. Now, that was just in Germany, but they seem to be on the up and up compared to other European countries.

Define standard of living, because I'm not seeing that one at all. Really, lay it out for me plain and simple with how we should define standard of living before we discuss that any further. Thanks.

[paulmish]

SinginJeannie - If you don't agree with the idea that America's Corporations are taking advantage every way they can, fine. But do not refer to tons of facts and evidence as "BS." If you would rather see the money go up instead of around, fine too. Maybe when it's you or yours, you will see it differently.

What's so bad about socialism, by the way? Other than what you were taught in high school that is?

[Fern]

Well, it is clear from all these posts that there are two ways to assess Wal-Mart: their impact on you as a consumer and thier treatment of employees.

Depending on which you more strong identify with...as a consumer of their products or as an employee...the views expressed here will tend to be polarized.

Normally, I would say there are plenty of employers out there who don't seem to care too much about their employees, as evidenced by their HR practices and benefits. In those cases I would say "let the buyer beware," or in this case, "let the employee prospect beware." In other words, research the company before you accept the job and know what you're getting into.

However, in the case of Wal-Mart, they are such an enormous company, and there is practically not a mid-sized town in the country without one, that I believe they have a greater responsibility to treat their employeees fairly; certainly, health insurance is something that every family needs.

[paulmish]

The comparison of worker vs. consumer is a good one. However, as a consumer, I feel that it is my responsibility to know what I am supporting (am I alone here?). Also, let's not forget the original point: even putting aside the ethics of labor mistreatment (and, as usual, the ethics argument has been trampled), the facts are that we are all paying for the employee benefits that the corporation sleezes out of, because we pay for it in social programs.

[singinjeannie]

This might be an aside, but I have to ask. Does K-mart have medical benefits for it's part-time employees? Does McDonald's? Does Target? What about Winn-Dixie? Giant Eagle? (in the north)?

I work part-time for a large medical provider and am not offered medical insurance coverage. I have worked for K-mart and Giant Eagle (a large unionized grocery store) and was never offered health-care while working part time for any of these. I also worked part-time for a very large Drug store, and once again -- no medical benefits. All are large companies. I just accepted that I would have to be working full-time somewhere to get medical benefits. It costs companies a lot of money to offer medical benefits.

Now, my DH works full-time for a medical facility and we pay the greater majority of the medical benefits. (more than $500 a month comes out of his paycheck to cover our medical benefits and we have no dental or eye insurance. Dental and Eyecare insurance would be another $100 a month, and we just can't afford that.)

Altho we are a family of 6, I just take it as my own responsibility to take care of the dental and eye care needs of my family. Responsibility for oneself -- what a concept!

I just don't see how Walmart is so much different than every other company and I feel that there are really nasty companies out there that we really should be exposing for the scum that they are. (Like most of the CC companies.)

Did any actual Walmart employees respond to this thread? Just wondering.
Love to hear their take on all of this. Knowing that if succeed in boycotting Walmart they'll be losing their jobs.

-Jean

[DivaJen]

I want to say that I've heard wal-mart keeps as many employees at parttime status so that they don't have to offer insurance benefits to them. I don't have a source to cite, but if I find it I'll edit.

Starbucks gives parttime employees access to benefits, and possibly retirement funding options, I believe. It can be done, even by the big companies.

People can be shortsighted, seeing only how something helps or hurts them, without looking at the larger picture. Whether they are intentionally doing that or not varies from person to person. In a capitalist society, we vote with our money. Where we shop and what we buy shows what we support and are willing to stand up for.

[VJW]

Originally Posted by jmjj215

Their health care is awful. You get what you pay for - BELIEVE ME when I say that. I had plenty of experiences in Germany with their health care system. It's a joke. Now, that was just in Germany, but they seem to be on the up and up compared to other European countries.

I found France's healthcare system to be wonderful. Called in the morning about having a minor procedure done, and was told to come in that afternoon. Instead of massive amounts of forms and red tape, I simply handed over a card and signed. I was treated immediately and out the door in 20 minutes.

Everything our system should be.

Define standard of living, because I'm not seeing that one at all. Really, lay it out for me plain and simple with how we should define standard of living before we discuss that any further. Thanks.

OK.

Basically, wages adjusted for inflation.

Therefore, if your wages increased by exactly the inflation rate, your 'Standard of Living' would be neutral. More than the inflation rate, your 'Standard of Living' increases. Less than the inflation rate, your 'Standard of Living' decreases, or goes backwards.

#

[paulmish]

I don't think many Wal-mart employees can afford computers! (No scientific evidence behind this, just some common sense).

The Frugal Yuppie

[paulmish]

Just to restate, the reason Wal-Mart is the target (pun?) is because the impact on social services, and therefore taxpayers, is the largest due to their size. Their size is also the reason they can act with impunity (monopolistic power). I am NOT talking about giving insurance away in an Easter basket here, I am talking about abuse, pure and simple. It happens when power grows. We are so quick to target teachers, policiticians, unions, etc., when they cost an extra mil, why do so many people get conveniently blind when corporate leaders cost many many mils? Why???

[Fern]

Jen is correct in that Starbucks is one of a notable few companies that offers health incurance to part tiem employees. (See my post about this in my journal....a friend of mine took a p/t job there expressley for the health insurance.)

[jmjj215]

Therefore, if your wages increased by exactly the inflation rate, your 'Standard of Living' would be neutral. More than the inflation rate, your 'Standard of Living' increases. Less than the inflation rate, your 'Standard of Living' decreases, or goes backwards.

Okay, so if I want to compare two countries' SOLs, I need to look at their country-specific wages to inflation. Does the buying power of the country's currency come into play? For instance, how much do groceries cost in France vs. in the U.S. - how does one answer that question when dealing with the Euro and Dollar?

Paulmish,
I have a hard time putting together your different statements. I'd love to discuss SO many things face to face - what a lively conversation we would have! I'm going to try and restate what I pulled from your comments.

One: We are paying for the benefits Wal-mart slacks on b/c these people then have to go to the government for help. That's lame. Walmart should be more responsible.

Two: Socialism isn't all that bad.

Three: Corporate leaders are paid way too much, teachers aren't paid enough.

Three is a no-brainer. High-five that we're in agreement there. It seems once they have the power, they abuse it, but they have the power so they can, and leave lots of people in the lurch. (What ticks me off is the airline companies that talk about how they're going to lose the company, so the unions back off, but the execs still make a killing - not always the case, but it happens enough that it makes me mad).

One: In the long-run, Walmart is not doing the right thing - ethically or from a business stand-point. They will fall because of immoral business practices. So we don't really have to even talk about what they allegedly are doing or aren't doing. I'm a firm believer in the following deep and profound philosophical doctrine: What goes around, comes around. Starbucks is a great company b/c they put the employee/customer first. They are doing extremely well. Don't we all wish we'd bought stock at the IPO? Wal-mart's stock has been stagnant for several years now. Why? They're still growing quickly, revenues are increasing at phenomenal rates. But their long-term prospects are grim. I believe it is because of their mistreatment of other human beings (be it suppliers, customers, or employees). This will be their downfall.

Two: I don't think socialism is evil or anything. I just don't think it's the best system. I think capitalism is. Socialism has been tried and I think the U.S. - with all of its problems - still offers a better chance for people to make a great living. I think I understand how you can say socialism isn't that bad (federally supported day-care, health-care) and at the same time say you're mad about having to pay for Wal-mart's neglect of their employees b/c you think Wal-mart should pick up the bill - not the taxpayers. But as a general idea, you don't mind paying taxes towards a national health-care system. Am I correct in seeing this? Wal-mart is skirting its responsbilities and that ticks you off - not the idea of paying taxes to support socialized medicine. (Forgive me if I'm assuming too much)

So, what do I believe? Wal-mart needs to really, really shape up its act or it will be dethroned by another company that has a more "humane" business strategy. That company will grow huge and will face the same power dilemma - but it's not inevitable that a company concedes - just probable.

I enjoy living in a capitalistic society.

I believe we should help the hungry, naked, and homeless by providing food, clothing, and shelther. At the same time, I believe that "free" (to the recipient) money - above and beyond the necessities of sustaining life - cripples a person's creativity, work ethic, and spirit.