Us Default: Take Your Money Out

[jteezie]

....

I don't know why you guys are being so pessimistic. It's a win win either way you look at it. Raise the limit, the economy continues it's recovery. Don't raise it, we find investing opportunities and the govt reforms the system, hopefully correctly.

It's not like these imaginary constructs we call "debt", "money", "governments", etc determines of existence. People walked the earth long before these technologies.

[greenskeeper]

Originally Posted by tripods68

When people qualified for mortgage in 80s and early 90s, lenders required 20% DOWN. Without these deductions the US economy will falter without these incentives. I would rather tax the super RICH, than raising taxes on the middle class.

I've never worked for a non-millionaire, how about yourself?

If you keep raising taxes on the rich do you think they will hire more staff? expand their business? you get the picture.

"the problem with socialism is, eventually you run out of other peoples money" M T

[greenskeeper]

Originally Posted by jteezie

....

I don't know why you guys are being so pessimistic. It's a win win either way you look at it. Raise the limit, the economy continues it's recovery. Don't raise it, we find investing opportunities and the govt reforms the system, hopefully correctly.

It's not like these imaginary constructs we call "debt", "money", "governments", etc determines of existence. People walked the earth long before these technologies.

the "recovery" is a propped up sham to begin with. The longer the illusion that everything is ok, the higher the level of pain we will all experience will be.

The economy needs to "reset" to something sustainable, if that is even possible with dwindling resources and a continuing expanding population.

[tripods68]

Originally Posted by greenskeeper

I've never worked for a non-millionaire, how about yourself?

If you keep raising taxes on the rich do you think they will hire more staff? expand their business? you get the picture.

"the problem with socialism is, eventually you run out of other peoples money" M T

In theory that may work, but that's not the reality.

US economic took off in the mid 90s up to 2000 under Clinton; no deficit + surplus. When BUSH II came into office, he lowered taxes; wiping off surplas; passed Medicare Part D for which did not pay for and fought two wars. We also had the two biggest economic declined combined in US history (2001 & 2008). Bush average 58K a month job growth which by far the worst of any seating presidency with any job records.

Clinton has the highest rate both personal and corporate yet helped expand US economy. Bush had the lowest tax rates but had the opposite affect; created the biggest deficits and losing job record growth.

[feh]

Originally Posted by tripods68

In theory that may work, but that's not the reality.

US economic took off in the mid 90s up to 2000 under Clinton; no deficit + surplus. When BUSH II came into office, he lowered taxes; wiping off surplas; passed Medicare Part D for which did not pay for and fought two wars. We also had the two biggest economic declined combined in US history (2001 & 2008). Bush average 58K a month job growth which by far the worst of any seating presidency with any job records.

Clinton has the highest rate both personal and corporate yet helped expand US economy. Bush had the lowest tax rates but had the opposite affect; created the biggest deficits and losing job record growth.

+1

It's so sad that people believe the "don't raise the taxes of the job creators" BS. I've got a bridge I'd like to sell those folks...

[KTP]

Cool, ok. The US spends 4 billion a day more than it has. So we should start by raising the taxes on Bill Gates to 100% of net worth. Ok cool...oops, it is next week and Bill is broke now, so how about 100% of Warren Buffett? Cool, that will fix it...oops, we are barely into August and ole Warren is bankrupt now.

Everyone has to pay from the top levels down to the bottom. Raise taxes and cut deductions and massively cut spending.

[tripods68]

Originally Posted by KTP

Cool, ok. The US spends 4 billion a day more than it has. So we should start by raising the taxes on Bill Gates to 100% of net worth. Ok cool...oops, it is next week and Bill is broke now, so how about 100% of Warren Buffett? Cool, that will fix it...oops, we are barely into August and ole Warren is bankrupt now.

Everyone has to pay from the top levels down to the bottom. Raise taxes and cut deductions and massively cut spending.

Why people always defend the SUPER RICH! If you are, why are you on this site? So 1.) I can assume you are not UBER RICH so this idea (don't tax the RICH which represent 2% of entire US population) are mainly driven by IDEALOGY who lacks understand of actual realities. I hate to say it, but people needs to lift their "blind covers" at time to see what's actually are happening force fed.

I have no beef with the current President for putting forward a plan to cut huge deficits, entitlements, and future spendings on military, etc. so long at UBER RICH also pay their shares.

I admit, I'm the same guy that voted for Bush II and re-lection 04 which I now fully regret (hindsight 20/20). It's amazing what you see crystal clear at times without blinders on.

[maat55]

I find it funny how many claim we will experience financial armageddon without raising the debt limit. We cannot pay the debt we have, how on earth is having more debt and not reducing spending dramatically going to help our current mess?

The truth is that the government has enough income to pay its debt obligations and interest. What it does not have is enough income to police the world and fund a rampant socialist agenda.

I would love to see our country default, but it will not. No one deserves the fruits of future americans prosperity.

[KTP]

Originally Posted by tripods68

Why people always defend the SUPER RICH! If you are, why are you on this site? So 1.) I can assume you are not UBER RICH so this idea (don't tax the RICH which represent 2% of entire US population) are mainly driven by IDEALOGY who lacks understand of actual realities. I hate to say it, but people needs to lift their "blind covers" at time to see what's actually are happening force fed.

I have no beef with the current President for putting forward a plan to cut huge deficits, entitlements, and future spendings on military, etc. so long at UBER RICH also pay their shares.

I admit, I'm the same guy that voted for Bush II and re-lection 04 which I now fully regret (hindsight 20/20). It's amazing what you see crystal clear at times without blinders on.

I guess we are sort of in agreement. I want to tax the UBER RICH, and I want to tax myself (middle class), and I want to tax the burger flipper making $7.55. Obviously I want the UBER RICH guy to pay a larger portion than the burger flipper, but everyone should pay something. I then want to get rid of tax shelters, morgage deductions, child tax credits, tuition tax credits, raise investment taxes so that the rich can't shelter income, etc. Raise SS retirement age by 1 year every 7 years and get rid of the cap on SS income tax. Everybody shares the pain, but nobody is out on the street eating dog food unless they spend their money on lottery tickets and wine...then I have no pity.

Basically I want to do everything the republicans don't want to do and everything the democrats don't want to do. I am a contrarian.

[Frugal]

I agree with Greenskeeper and Maat68 (spelling??).

Regardless of our individual ideologies and opinions on a potential default, I am wondering whether people think we will actually default...
I wish we would so our country would learn a lesson and stop spending beyond our means (even though, of course, it would be painful individually and as a nation).

What do all of you think? Will we actually default before the 2nd? Why or why not?

Do you think S & P will downgrade us (a separate matter, really)? They say they might anyway regardless of a default or non-default, but there is a 50% chance of downgrade.

[Scanner]

Look Maat(and other Conservatives):

We don't have enough money to service our debts. The idea that a default means nothing is complete Rush Limbaugh bunk.

Yes, it may not be a complete default, but it may be a partial default. And default is still default.

It would be like this, Maat - I owe you $100/month, $20 in interest and $80 in principal. I can't make the $100 payment but I say,

"Oh, okay, Maat. . .so sorry about that. . .here's $20 (the interest) and perhaps another $10 for principal, but I'll get back to you on the rest of the principal when Congress reconvenes in 2012"

THAT is still default. And that is what would happen, not to mention the credit line being shut off.

You don't toy around with staining our country's honor by playing around with this stuff. All independent economists say we need a combination of both - raising taxes and reduced spending (entitlements included!!!).

As far as the rich (I mean Job Creators). . .just stop worrying about them. JUST STOP! Everytime a Conservative opens their mouth lately it's why I should have sympathy for them. It's not going to work.

True businessmen and women make it without the government's help (a tax break). They don't even think about it. They don't ask for handouts.

[tripods68]

Originally Posted by maat55

The truth is that the government has enough income to pay its debt obligations and interest. What it does not have is enough income to police the world and fund a rampant socialist agenda.

I would love to see our country default, but it will not. No one deserves the fruits of future americans prosperity.

The question how long will US have enough $$ before it runs out? A week or two, a month. What happen to financial market? That's something none of us wants to find out, especially those with retirement accounts, or near retirement age.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by Scanner

Look Maat(and other Conservatives):

We don't have enough money to service our debts. The idea that a default means nothing is complete Rush Limbaugh bunk.

Yes, it may not be a complete default, but it may be a partial default. And default is still default.

It would be like this, Maat - I owe you $100/month, $20 in interest and $80 in principal. I can't make the $100 payment but I say,

"Oh, okay, Maat. . .so sorry about that. . .here's $20 (the interest) and perhaps another $10 for principal, but I'll get back to you on the rest of the principal when Congress reconvenes in 2012"

THAT is still default. And that is what would happen, not to mention the credit line being shut off.

You don't toy around with staining our country's honor by playing around with this stuff. All independent economists say we need a combination of both - raising taxes and reduced spending (entitlements included!!!).

As far as the rich (I mean Job Creators). . .just stop worrying about them. JUST STOP! Everytime a Conservative opens their mouth lately it's why I should have sympathy for them. It's not going to work.

True businessmen and women make it without the government's help (a tax break). They don't even think about it. They don't ask for handouts.

Perhaps you should go back to math class. Not raising the debt does not mean you cannot borrow to roll current debt.

Example: I owe 100.00(80.00p, 20i) I can borrow 80 and use current income to pay the 20, this does not raise the debt.

What your not getting is that the government never cuts spending it just increases less. We have plenty of taxation for Constitutional duties, what we lack is taxation for governments socialist agenda.

[maat55]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Frugal

What do all of you think? Will we actually default before the 2nd? Why or why not?

No, the very suggestion by the president and others is childish politics.

Do you think S & P will downgrade us (a separate matter, really)? They say they might anyway regardless of a default or non-default, but there is a 50% chance of downgrade.

We deserved a downgrade during Bush. Besides, what the S%P thinks is political bunk.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by tripods68

The question how long will US have enough $$ before it runs out? A week or two, a month. What happen to financial market? That's something none of us wants to find out, especially those with retirement accounts, or near retirement age.

There will never be enough money to fund the whims and socialist agenda of government. Everyone who wants to increase taxes is really saying that they just want to maintain the status quo.

The government takes in 200+ billion dollars per month, our interest debt is only 6% of this, we are not in a default crisis, we are in a status quo crisis. I really do not give a rats behind about how we are going to fund our way into a European cesspool.

[KTP]

Ok I just heard Obama's speach. Rightly or wrongly, he threw the house republicans under the proverbial bus. This bickering is getting worse and now I do not think there will be a budget agreement before August 2. This is kind of fun....it is like watching a building fall down in very slow motion, and we are all just standing there tweeting about it.

"This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang, but a whimper." T. S. Eliot

[Snodog]

Regarding "job creators". The real job creators are the consumers(rich, poor, and especially middle class). A rich guy isn't going to hire more workers just because you throw more money at him. He's going to hire when he has more customers. Why can't our leaders get this? Warren Mosler gets it right. The Center of the Universe » Blog Archive » Business doesn’t create jobs, consumers do/more debt ceiling comments

[Scanner]

Snodog,

Thank you - and it's exactly right. If you throw me a $50,000 tax break this year at my business, I can guarantee you I am NOT, NOT going to hire anyone else UNLESS there are more consumers of my service.

I would just pocket the $50,000.

Even Great Britain has now chimed in accusing the "Right Wing Nutters", as they used the King's English, of holding us back.

Mind you, the English don't care if Palin or Obama is President, they just don't want the markets destabilized.

What I unfortunately think is a good possibility is we may be downgraded anyway. Our creditworthiness is based off a few factors:

1. Our debt load
2. Our expense sheet (deficit)
3. Our GDP
4. Our ability and whereithal to tax to cover #1.

If I were Moody's or S&P, well, do you really think we have the intestinal fortitude as a country to apply taxes to pay back investors?

Would you, if you were an investor, loan money to the US when you have Far Right Wing Nutters saying it's no big deal if we don't pay back our obligations?

I know I wouldn't.

I am not even sure I want my assets in dollars any more.