How do I tell my mother no?

[Brandie]

My mom asked that if she needs to can she borrow $2000 to tide her over while she tries to sell her house. My mother probably ranks 3-4 on the hoarding scale but the good thing is she's actually just lazy. She doesn't have a need to keep items. Problem being the house is trashed. Since the mortgage payment is more than she can handle she'll lose the house if she can't sell it soon. Luckily, the houses in her area go for $500,000 so she's hoping to sell for $200,000 less which should be enough to cover the loan and fees. The problem is my mother is a financial moron. In all fairness, so was my father but he died a couple of years ago so now my mom has to deal with it by herself. I do not want to "loan" her the money because I know my husband and I will never get it back. I, also, don't want to lend her money because I thought my father dying would be the brick wall she needed to crash head first into to straighten out...it didn't work. So, I'm hoping losing her house will do the trick. Yes, I'm mean and cold-hearted but I'm 28 years old have a fully funded emergency fund, have investments including retirement funds, and the only debt we've have is a mortgage and in the past five years we've had it we've paid an extra $30,000 off the mortgage ( mostly from bonuses)-and the woman (until recently) refused to take advice from me because she's older and knows more! By the way, when I met my husband when I was 21 (married at 22) and he was 27 he was $40,000 in debt yet I managed to teach him finances and like I said-aside from the house we're debt free and she still wouldn't trust me! Yes, I'm sour grapes. Unfortunately, when we go to sell our house next year we might still have to pay off part of the mortgage since we're only $6,000 ahead according to Zillow-I know, not the most reliable source but the only one I have. But, there's another question (this is a long post-I'm sorry)-do I save some cash now to pay off potential fees or do I throw what I can at the principal to get the loan down enough that I hopefully won't have to pay fees???

Again, I apologize for the length and the gripiness.

[cschin4]

Hi Brandie - You have a couple of different issues. First, your mom. I get that your mom isn't necessarily the most responsible person with money. But, has she ever asked to borrow money from you ? Have you given her money in the past? How is the money going to tide her over? What will it be used for? And, if her home is trashed, she may not sell it for months or months. Sometimes homes don't sell for years. If she wants to sell, she needs to get her home in the best shape possible and if you want to help her, then it would be helpful to help her get the home ready.
Where is your mom going to go after she sells the house? Is she buying another house, going into an apt or what?

[buildmybudget]

There are so many ways you can help your mom without giving her the money. You're obviously good with your budget and finances--so take some time each week to sit down and go over your mom's budget. While you're there you can start helping her go through her stuff and prepare for a garage sale. Yes, it will cost you a lot of time instead of money, but by empowering her now you would probably be saving yourself from an even bigger headache down the road. I'm about six months into teaching my own mother fiscal responsibility and I've recently had to lend money to my father(despite all my efforts to help him otherwise)--so I can say I've been there.

[maat55]

If you see giving her the money as no more than a temporary benefit to her, I would not do it. I would not use my funds in a meaningless manner and will not allow anyone else to do so either.

Does she have something of value she can title to you if she cannot repay you?

Knowing my wifes and my parents, I would give them the money, but they are responsible. I would not give to any relative that is irresponsible.

Both my brothers are fairly irresponsible, one wanted me to buy his motorcycle so that he could pay off debts. I told him I did not need a motorcycle. If he had pressed, I would have had him title the bike to me and I would have sold it for him to get my money(only loaning him well below value, and give him the balance) back.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by buildmybudget

start helping her go through her stuff and prepare for a garage sale.

Just what I was going to suggest. Rather than giving her $2,000, work with her to raise that $2,000. If she has a house packed full of stuff, I'd bet you could generate at least $2,000 selling off everything she doesn't want or need. That gets her the money she needs and helps get the house ready to put on the market.

[Brandie]

Thank you for all the advice. I have "lent" my parents money since high school. My biggest financial mistake was not paying the $275 activation fee for a cell phone because I had no credit history so I went under my mom's account. Paying her share so my phone wouldn't be shut off cost me a LOT more. That's also why I didn't get a credit card-I didn't know the rules about co-signing with a parent and didn't trust them.
I can't go and help (well, I suppose I could but I have school to worry about) because I'm in Japan (my husband's navy). As for selling stuff, they're not allowed to have garage sales in the townhouse complex she lives in and the stuff is trashed to the point it should only go to the dump (and I'm rather frugal).
She will not be able to buy another house-and I see her having issues renting-because her credit is shot. She might not be able to sell the house and in that case she has already said she's just thinking about walking away. But she has said she want's to rent a place in Kailua (the next town over from where she lives). She seems unable to comprehend that living in Hawaii (while it may be her home) is no longer feasible. Her sister and brother-in-law have asked her to move in with them but my mom has said she doesn't want to. She is NOT invited to my house pretty much ever. She stayed with my sister for a week or two not too long ago and my sister was complaining about how bad the room was getting.
I'll admit I didn't listen too closely to what she said she would use the money for because I was rather disgusted/disappointed/shocked she would ask.
One of the worst things she has said through all of this was that she can't do a budget right now-she needs to wait until everything is settled and then she will be able to figure everything out. That's the response I get when I ask her if I can help her with her budget. This is a sign to me that she is still not worthy to be lent or given money.
I have debated about telling her if she lets me help her set up a budget THEN and only then will I lend her the money. I don't even think that will work. But, is it worth a try?

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by Brandie

I have debated about telling her if she lets me help her set up a budget THEN and only then will I lend her the money. I don't even think that will work. But, is it worth a try?

As far as I'm concerned, if you are giving/lending money, you have every right to know how that money will be spent. If you don't agree with or approve of how it will be spent, don't give/lend it. If the recipient isn't willing to sit down and show you why the money is needed and how it will be used, then they don't get the money.

I think offering to sit down and review her finances and help her set up a budget as a condition of you giving the money is not only a good idea but a critical idea. In fact, she may even discover, as many people do, that once she sits down and creates a written budget, she doesn't even need the $2,000 she is asking for.

As for selling stuff, don't be too quick to dismiss that option. Even if she isn't allowed to have a yard sale, there are other ways to sell stuff. There is always ebay. Is craigslist active where she lives? Is there a local flea market or maybe an upcoming church bazaar where she could take a table? You may be surprised at what people will buy - damaged furniture, broken appliances and more can be sold to the right buyer.

One of my favorite ebay stories - When we got married, we rented my wife's great aunt's house. Her personal items had been mostly removed but the house wasn't totally cleaned out. On the basement shelving, there was a bag of very old Kool-Aid packets. No way would anyone consider actually using them and drinking the stuff Most normal people would have tossed them in the trash. Me, I took a photo and put them on ebay and sold the lot of them for over $40. One man's trash....

[Brandie]

There are a number of problems in trying to get her to sell stuff-namely, cleaning the items off. There are spider webs, insect (and gecko) droppings, dead insects, mold, etc. In some rooms it seems like she used the floor as a trash can. I've found paper plates (and knives) with chicken bones still on them underneath piles of trash. And anyone who doesn't love the smell of cigarette smoke would be hard-pressed to want to buy anything from her. I have a few items I grabbed when I went back a couple of years ago and they still smell of smoke. Oh, that's another reason for not lending her money-her smoking habit. I don't want to know how much she wastes on that. She lights one cigarette with another. I would consider trying to sell something but there's no one there that could take the time to sort through the trash and clean up what might possibly be considered goods. It might not need real cleaning up if it was just dust but it's biological matter as well. I just wouldn't feel right about selling something I couldn't be sure was safe. I might be able to e-mail my aunt and see if she thinks anything is salvageable. I at least know I can get an honest, and good, opinion from her.

[disneysteve]

That's a different story. Clearing stuff from a true hoarder's home, especially a smoker, involves a dumpster more than anything. From what you've said, there is no way I'd be giving that person money to support their bad habits.

[skydivingchic]

From what you have said, no way would I be giving (or "lending") money to this person, it would just end up enabling her for a little longer. If you really feel like you need to help out, I would suggest hiring someone to come in and clean the place out - throw most everything away and get the house ready for show/sell. Beyond that, it sounds like your mom really is just going to have to hit rock bottom herself before there is any hope in realizing the error of her ways and changing. Even then, she might not change. But giving her money will just enable her to continue on this path a bit longer.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

I'm sorry you find yourself in this impossible position. It must be sometimes maddening, sometimes heart-breaking. Whatever you do, take care of yourself and your beloved. Don't go down the drain along with your Mom.

[mcfroggin]

Originally Posted by Brandie

There are a number of problems in trying to get her to sell stuff-namely, cleaning the items off. There are spider webs, insect (and gecko) droppings, dead insects, mold, etc. In some rooms it seems like she used the floor as a trash can. I've found paper plates (and knives) with chicken bones still on them underneath piles of trash. And anyone who doesn't love the smell of cigarette smoke would be hard-pressed to want to buy anything from her. I have a few items I grabbed when I went back a couple of years ago and they still smell of smoke. Oh, that's another reason for not lending her money-her smoking habit. I don't want to know how much she wastes on that. She lights one cigarette with another. I would consider trying to sell something but there's no one there that could take the time to sort through the trash and clean up what might possibly be considered goods. It might not need real cleaning up if it was just dust but it's biological matter as well. I just wouldn't feel right about selling something I couldn't be sure was safe. I might be able to e-mail my aunt and see if she thinks anything is salvageable. I at least know I can get an honest, and good, opinion from her.

Wow. I do agree that helping someone that refuses to help themselves is a waste of time. Relatives have offered her housing, and she has refused. Any money you put on the table would be a gift - its not coming back. Tough situation to be in. Many hoarders need emotional, medical, and financial help. I wish you and your mom the best of luck.

[PatientSaver]

I agree with the others. Basically, if you don't think will be able to pay back a loan, DONT make a loan, whether it's your mother or anyone else. That won't help your relationship. Find another way to help her.

Time to cut the cord.

[Brandie]

Thank you everyone. I have decided not to make the "loan." I'm glad you all understand. My sister thinks I'm cold-hearted and evil. She thinks we need to handle our mother with kid-gloves and take care of her. However, my sister has followed my parents in their financial footsteps so I at least don't have to worry about her loaning my mother money. Any advice on good arguments to use with my sister? She doesn't know our mom asked to borrow money but she thinks I should allow our mom to move in with me. I kind of want her to understand my reasoning but in the end, if she doesn't, I'm perfectly happy with not talking to her. I do figure that should be a last resort.

[cschin4]

Brandie - The best way to deal with siblings is to not discuss your finances with them in the first place. Nor your relationship with your mom. My sibs don't tell me how to spend money nor do i tell them. Keep personal information personal. YOu don't have to justify yourself to your sib. And, how you deal with your mom is how you do so directly and frankly none of your sister's business and don't give your sibs the power to tell you how to do so.
But, with your mom, i am a bit more lenient here than some. I think there are situations and times to help. And, if it is a rare request, i would have just given her the money. If she has asked you for money over years, then no. Or, you could give her part of the amount or whatever if you are so inclined. But, always view it as a gift, give it and forget about it or don't give. And, so what if she just fritters it away. Sometimes it isnt' wrong to just give in light of that either . But, do what makes you comfortable.

[frugalgirl]

Originally Posted by Brandie

Thank you everyone. I have decided not to make the "loan." I'm glad you all understand. My sister thinks I'm cold-hearted and evil. She thinks we need to handle our mother with kid-gloves and take care of her. However, my sister has followed my parents in their financial footsteps so I at least don't have to worry about her loaning my mother money. Any advice on good arguments to use with my sister? She doesn't know our mom asked to borrow money but she thinks I should allow our mom to move in with me. I kind of want her to understand my reasoning but in the end, if she doesn't, I'm perfectly happy with not talking to her. I do figure that should be a last resort.

I guess I'd deal with my siblings by asking them how they would feel if the situation were reversed: what if you were asking to borrow money from your mom and move in with her? Would your sister think you should be standing on your own two feet? Would she think that you needed to take responsibility for the mess you have made literally and figuratively with your housing situation? How long would your sister think your mother would need to keep trying to help you when you won't help yourself?

[Brandie]

cschin4-Unfortunately, the only way to not discuss my mother with my sister is to not talk to my sister. She won't shut up about it when I ask her too. Of course, not talking to her might not be a bad thing. I actually think it's a good thing to discuss finances. I think that's part of the reason so many people are in trouble. It's seen as a taboo topic so people don't want to ask for help. My parents never talked to me about finances (probably a good thing considering.) The only way I learned was by watching them and somehow, unlike my sister, realize that everything they were doing was horribly wrong.
frugalgirl-I tried that the last time I talked to her and all I got was "she's sick in the head-we have to treat her carefully and help her." I constantly switch between who is the more unreasonable of the two-though right now it's actually my sister.
The other problem with my sister is that she doesn't realize she's being a hypocrite. She does a lot of the same stupid things my mom does yet she thinks she's fine but my mom is crazy. It drives me crazy talking to her.

[cschin4]

I don't discuss finances with my sibs. You don't have to either. I talk in general terms but they are not going to tell me how or when to spend my money, etc. You can start distancing them a bit by talking in vague terms. They don't need to know your financial situation. It is simply none of their business how much you have, make, owe, etc. And, the reason why is because it is a "lose, lose" situation. If you are doing well, they will somehow feel entitled to your money or tell you why you can afford to do this or that. If you aren't doing so well, then they think they can tell you how to do better. For everyone' s sake, the best approach is to keep it very vague and talk on general terms. I never say "I can't afford it", nor do i tell them i have plenty of money, just isn't their business.

[wincrasher]

Wow, where to begin?

You mother definitely is suffering from mental illness. That's exactly what it is. It isn't foolishness, irresponsibility or stupidity. Very few hoarders actually recognize they have a problem and seek help for it.

If you want to help you mother, and I sense that you do, even with all the anger and calling her a "moron", you should seek out a local counselor to help her. Maybe an intervention is in order. Maybe she needs medication.

When it comes down to it, you have to realize you can't change people. Not your mom or your sister. They have to want to change themselves. You can give them the assistance, but they have to want it for it to work.

Good luck.

[zakity]

Learn the art of non-commital answers ("that does suck for mom that her house is in forclosure", "that is so sad that she has all that mess to clean up", "I am so sorry that you feel that way", "isn't that nice for her", "i am glad that is working for you"). It is the best way to deal with some siblings and family members. Oh yeah, non-commital answers work best if you aren't emotional when you say them. And saying it slightly upbeat if the situation calls for it.

With my family, I tell them little to nothing. When they call and ask how I am, everything is all fine and dandy (even if the walls are falling down around me). It gives them less fuel.