Looking for input.

[maat55]

I have a situation in my family. It concerns my daughter and son-in-law. I will give all the details as I know them so that I can get a perspective other than my own. I have had a talk with them and presented my opinion as to how to deal with their situation.

I do not know the full extent of their situation, but I think I can provide the important information necessary. They are determined to tithe 10% of any income.

They both have bachelor degrees, he in marketing, her in child developement.
They have a 17 month and a 4 month year olds.

Their estimated monthly expenses:

House- 675.00(bought on first-time homebuyers 8k credit, 15 months left)I warned them.
Utilities- 200.00(estimate)
Cells- 150.00(estimate)
Car payment- 265.00(owe 11k, estimate worth 10-12k)
Food- 500.00(estimate)
CC- 110.00(minimum payment, 4k balance)
Hospital bill- 25.00(balance 300.00)
Auto Ins. 115.00
Student loan- 117.00(17k balance)
Gym mem.- 50.00(till next Oct.,they will not allow buyout)
Health ins. 530.00

Total- 2737.00 Daughter etimated they needed 3300 per month to cover expenses and tithe, so I should be close.

Current income- 0 neither have jobs.

Assets approximate worth:

House: 115k owes appro. 105k(i'm ball park guessing)
Truck: 10-12k paid for.
car: 10-12k owes 11k
Expecting 2k refund next year
She and babies qualifies for indian health aid.
Wife mentioned Sooner care(state medicaid) and food stamps. You know how I feel about these.


My suggestions were until income present:

Sell both cars. estimate cash in hand 8-11k
Buy two 2k cars leaves about 4-7k in savings eliminates 265.00 payment and should lower ins.
Drop health ins. 530.00
Drop tithe(torn about this,but does not matter until income present)
Drop Gym(despite contract) 50.00
He get any full-time and part-time work, she wants to baby sit for extra money.(as far as I can tell, neither qualify for unemployment).
NOTE: he has 4 tickets on driving record and a public intoxication(not good on background checks).
Drop cells 150.00 (I'll provide mine for her).
Total reduction in expenses around 995.00 per month.

When income comes in:

Remain on a tight budget.
Pay house, utilities, food, auto ins., gas to work,and maintain any savings to hopefully keep house until better income. Plan would be re-assessed once income comes.

[disneysteve]

I can never quite understand people who are unemployed but continuing to live and spend as if all was well and the money was flowing in regularly.

$500 for food for 2 adults is insane. An infant and toddler don't eat that much (hopefully mom is nursing the infant).
Dump the cell plans if possible and get a couple of pre-paid phones or get a basic landline installed. Cells are luxury items.
If possible, get out of the gym contract, though I know that can be virtually impossible. At the very least, see if they can suspend it due to unemployment. Some gyms will allow that and let them pick it back up when they are working again.
I agree about the cars. They are worth 20K and they owe 11K. Sell them both. Pay off the loan. That leaves 9K. Use that to buy 2 cheap cars, as you suggested.
I know tithing is a touchy subject but I simply can't comprehend giving away money when you don't have any to give away.
Dropping health coverage on the people who qualify for state care is fine but keep it on the dad if he doesn't qualify.

Why are neither of them working? I get that she's home with the kids but what about him? He needs to go out tomorrow and get a job. Any job. Maybe 2 or 3 jobs. Deliver pizzas or papers. Sweep floors. Flip burgers. Scrub toilets. Whatever it takes to feed his family and keep a roof over their heads.

[minnie1928]

I agree with everything that Steve said, but I wanted to add for them to look into angel food ministries to help stretch their grocery budget. $500 is too high for the 2 of them.

They are in no way in a position to tithe, but they may want to reach out to the church to help look for employment opportunities or financial assistance.

[Seeker]

My advice would duplicate yours Maat.

As far as tithing, it's generally said that the amount is based on "income"... with 0 income there is no "expectation" to tithe.

What does the Bible say about Christian tithing?

The situation on the house is questionable as well. How do they expect to pay the mortgage?

Has he been looking for work as in a 40-hour/week job?

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by Seeker

As far as tithing, it's generally said that the amount is based on "income"... with 0 income there is no "expectation" to tithe.

I think what maat was saying was that anytime they do have money come in, they tithe from that. I'm sorry, but when you are drowning and someone tosses you a life preserver, you don't cut 10% of it off and give it to someone else.

[maat55]

[quote]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

I can never quite understand people who are unemployed but continuing to live and spend as if all was well and the money was flowing in regularly.

$500 for food for 2 adults is insane. An infant and toddler don't eat that much (hopefully mom is nursing the infant).

The 500 for food is an estimate for normal expenses. They have been spending time here and at his parents eating, so I am betting they are spending much less at this time. They even elected to fast today.

Why are neither of them working?

Very long story. He was recruited by one company while working for another. During his 2 week notice, the man that recruited him died. The company decided not to hire him.

He has been on several interviews,his background is a detriment and one turned him down due to he was over-qualified(they believed he would move on when possible). The reason I want him to lower his expenses and store away more savings is due to he will likely have to find lower paying work.

I think he has avoided working for less in the past, but he has told me he is looking for anything possible. He went to his father for advice and help and was given tough love. He is waiting to here from a landscaping service and a Baker Hughes contact. I believe he will have some form of work soon, and it will likely be lower paying.

[SnoopyCool]

Hiring right now: H & R Block If either of them want to work as customer service professionals, they should get these applications in tonight. It's not permanent, but it is work.

[nmboone]

Just putting this out there, but they may qualify for a free Safelink wireless phone. It's not a fancy phone or anything but it's completely free minutes and texts up to a limit. If the kids are on medicaid, then the family should qualify.

[maat55]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Seeker

What does the Bible say about Christian tithing?

Edited out due to not wishing to provide a possible inaccuracy.

The situation on the house is questionable as well. How do they expect to pay the mortgage?

The mortgage is not that high,yet it will be a challenge even with the reductions in lifestyle. This is why I believe he needs a full and part-time job until he is able to find a good paying job.

Honestly, I'm concerned with his dedication to manage this without maxing out his CC, he has a 15k limit on it. I am convinced I could pull this off, but I would come at it from a much more conservative mindset.

Has he been looking for work as in a 40-hour/week job?

I think after talking to his dad yesterday, he is motivated to take anything ASAP. I can atest that he has been beating the pavement, but until now, he may have been a little more picky in the past.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by nmboone

Just putting this out there, but they may qualify for a free Safelink wireless phone. It's not a fancy phone or anything but it's completely free minutes and texts up to a limit. If the kids are on medicaid, then the family should qualify.

I've e-mailed him this forum, hopefully he will see and apply much of the referals and advice. Thanks.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by SnoopyCool

Hiring right now: H & R Block If either of them want to work as customer service professionals, they should get these applications in tonight. It's not permanent, but it is work.

I passed this link along in an e-mail. Thanks.

[jpg7n16]

Warning: Okay this is going to be a religious post on my views of people with barely anything tithing. I still feel they should, but if they don't - there are more important pieces of Christianity (love, justice, mercy, etc.). If you disagree with me, that's fine. It obviously makes more financial sense to keep as much as you can in very hard times, but there are more important reasons to tithe even when you have little.

This is why I feel they should.

One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much.
Luke 16:10

1Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, 2and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. 3And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. 4For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”
Luke 21:1-4

Yes, you wouldn't cut off 10% of your life preserver if you were drowning, but I don't think you should forget that God supplies you with all you have, even if it's not much - and I feel you should honor Him with the little that you have. The tithe is more about honoring the Giver of all things.

Cutting off 10% of a life jacket causes the other 90% to be worthless. But giving 10% to God will not adversely affect the other 90%.

And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:19


[/personal religious views]


As far as the rest of his situation, you already know what to do sell assets to preserve cashflow. Cut expenses (esp food costs). Search for jobs. Work small stuff in the meantime until you find something more stable. Temp jobs while searching are perfectly normal.

I think all your advice would be fine.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by jpg7n16

Warning: Okay this is going to be a religious post on my views of people with barely anything tithing. I still feel they should, but if they don't - there are more important pieces of Christianity (love, justice, mercy, etc.). If you disagree with me, that's fine. It obviously makes more financial sense to keep as much as you can in very hard times, but there are more important reasons to tithe even when you have little.

This is why I feel they should.

One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much.
Luke 16:10

1Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, 2and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. 3And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. 4For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”
Luke 21:1-4

Yes, you wouldn't cut off 10% of your life preserver if you were drowning, but I don't think you should forget that God supplies you with all you have, even if it's not much - and I feel you should honor Him with the little that you have. The tithe is more about honoring the Giver of all things.

Cutting off 10% of a life jacket causes the other 90% to be worthless. But giving 10% to God will not adversely affect the other 90%.

And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:19


[/personal religious views]


As far as the rest of his situation, you already know what to do sell assets to preserve cashflow. Cut expenses (esp food costs). Search for jobs. Work small stuff in the meantime until you find something more stable. Temp jobs while searching are perfectly normal.

I think all your advice would be fine.

I have complete respect for your post. Thanks.

[Seeker]

jpg,

While I "respect" your belief, I do not agree with that answer.

I cannot believe that any loving, caring God would encourage a "head" of household to make a choice (to tithe) when potentially the family is hurting.

What does the Bible say about a Christian going into debt?

Maat descibes this head of household as living as if the "income" were still there -- it's not.

I understand what Luke wrote, and I can respect a woman along choosing to give all that she had... but not if it affects children and others whom have no choice about what is given.

Does this Church NEED this tithe? Whatever amount it is, it means that a family continues to struggle financially. I cannot agree with that.

I can agree with "tithing" or giving when you have extra to do so. There's also giving of time instead of dollars. There's good and bad in the world.... giving is good, but not when there's a limited amount of sustanance for this family. When he has work is when he can give.

[jpg7n16]

Originally Posted by Seeker

Maat descibes this head of household as living as if the "income" were still there -- it's not.

As far as the tithe goes, I created another thread here for that discussion, as it wasn't the focal point of Maat's delimma.

Should struggling families tithe?

But as far as this statement, that issue is why the rest of my post shows the obvious. The family needs to cut expenses. We all agree that they can't keep up the same standard of living as before. Something has to change for them.

(I personally feel that they can keep up the tithing - based on the low new income, not the old high one, but we can discuss that in the other thread)

[maat55]

Disclaimer: Earlier in this thread I had mentioned that Dave Ramsey leans toward not tithing while getting out of financial hardship. I do not wish to imply that he advocates this or that he personally avoided tithing during his financial hardship. He has mentioned many times that he is faithful in tithing and the the tithe is one of many acts of faith.

He has mentioned many times that tithing is not the deciding factor in your salvation or prosperity.

[scfr]

Sell the truck & keep the car. Better yet, sell both vehicles and buy a used one that's less than $5K. If neither are working, they can certainly get by with one vehicle, and if your daughter elects to stay home they can get by with only 1 indefinitely. (If she needs the car to run errands one day a week, then when her husband gets work she can drive him to & from work on one day a week.)

I don't recommend dropping the health insurance with 2 babies, unless the Indian health aid would replace what they currently have.

Would you ever consider giving one of them a job in your business?

Christmas: The babies are too young remember that they didn't get any toys or cute gifts. Make your gifts to them this year either practical ones (diapers, groceries, etc) or cash.

[cptacek]

Why can't she get a job? If her background is "better" than his in this economy, she should at least try to get a job and let him stay home with the kids. He can still look, and if he finds one better, she can quit. Not the optimal situation, but the baby is 4 months old, and she can pump if she is still breastfeeding (? don't know if she is or not).

Is the house such that they can rent a room to someone? Even if for 6 months, this could help out. I know having another person in your house when raising a family isn't the best situation, but losing the house it probably worse.

If they get rid of the cars and buy two beaters, the car insurance costs can go down.

When it snows, is he out shoveling sidewalks? Is he doing anything except playing x-box?

[maat55]

I'm not discussing their situation other than through this thread. I will not be able to answer any personal question. I do have a couple of number adjustments, income information and a possible scenario of gifted money. I do not know if he is keeping up with the thread.

The house payment is 767.00
The health ins. is 310.00

He has recently acquired a job until the first of the year working at a department store(do not know the income)

And he may be gifted anywhere from 1-3k this christmas. The question is: what do you do with say 3k extra funds for christmas and 2k funds from a return, under his current situation?

I have given him my opinion, i'm interested in yours.

[jpg7n16]

The best thing is to use it to get out of the vehicles, if he hasn't already.

Getting rid of the cars, gets rid of the loans, which gets rid of the payments, which puts less strain on his monthly cashflow - enabling him to support himself longer on a lower budget.

So if he were somehow able to do that, it'd clear up a lot for him.


Either that, or take some class(es) to get certified for something he has experience doing? This might open up more job opportunities, and raise the income. I mean the income's the main hurdle he's looking at. Though you said he was over-qualified already, so that might not even help.

The safer bet is the cars.