Why Men Earn More Money

[cercis]

Well considering that lactation consultants themselves are darn rare (I think there are about 4 in the whole state of Oklahoma) even one is probably a decent percentage.

I've heard it all from men "well, I couldn't be a _________ if I wanted to, so I don't know why you're complaining that you couldn't get hired to be a forester". Yeah, because you know, their one little piddly example which pays all of about $20k/year is soooo comparable.

I'm sorry, men have the upper hand in the US. The good ole boys club is alive and well. And probably always will be because too women deny that it exists and women refuse to show the same favoritism (which is good) and they bend over backwards to prove that they don't and are 3x harder on a woman than on a man (which is bad).

I've seen too much evidence of it first hand to trust any "study" that says otherwise.

[PrincessPerky]

I think some of the deal is that STATISTICALY, women do tend to go ff and get pregnant, and that puts a crimp in any buisness. It is NOT universally true, but any employer looking at the bottom line IS going to look at the fact that women between the ages of 20 and 30 tend to get pregnant, weather they come into an interview saying 'I am going to have a family' or not.

Now one thing they often miss out on is that mothers are better (statistically) multitaskers, and such. But in the case of emergency work? that old Male gotta protect her kicks in. (statistically) plus the (statistical) trend for women to go off and get pregnant. (and btw a large number of women do NOT return after having the kid, so no multitask boost)

The cure for those two things? There isn't one, Go rant and rave at God, He designed the system. Sorry. Guys can stand to pee, girls get to carry babies. Facts of life. There happen to be some great benifits to the female plumbing, but not on cold winter nights, and not when 5 days overdue . (and not when trying to convince an employer that you have no intentions of getting kids)

Now there are some people (male and female) who have no statistical reason, but will simply hire someone at the lowest rate they can get them to work for, which (statistically) tends to be less for women. Also some people DO still live in the dark ages and assume women can't do a certain job (some women assume men can't, not all of us are open to SAHDs, sheesh, half the mothers I know assume their own husbands can't do anything when at home, much less stay with the kid) This is not Universally true however.

Personally I think if you posted a series of articles about how women are paid equally, and gave a free course on negotiation and research of salories, you would prolly see a much faster trend to pay the same then the by harping on how it is different (reinforcing the employers opinion that women will TAKE less for a job)

BTW I am prejudiced, I don't want a male midwife!!!!!!!! Or labor nurse, a male CANNOT have a clue what it is really like!!!!!!! I personally don't want a labor nurse that has never had kids either, but I would prefer she at least knew what cramps were like than a guy who never had a cervex to be checked much less a contraction!

[jmjj215]

Engineering is one of the few noble professions that actually provides something useful for society instead of leeching off of it.

Accounting provides something useful to society as well - information reliability in the markets. Can it also be used to mess people over? Definitely.

But man, engineering can really screw people over. I'm thinking military at the moment

[Gruntina]

Just a thought of mine...... its more of where you stand as an individual and how you standarize yourself. It is often the oppressors that have power over the opressed. Some people are oppressed because of the minority group that they may be in or the way they were raised. The oppressed may not be aware of other ways and thus willing to accept things how they are.

My motto - Who says you have to follow all of the rules? Creat new ones to make things fit within a win-win situation that works!

[cercis]

Grunt,

Unfortunately, for a lot of us, it means giving up our childhood dreams. I will never be allowed to be what I wanted to do as a child. And it sucks. I'm sorry I don't have a penis. Not sorry enough to have an operation, but sheesh.

The only way to work around it was to 1) sell my soul and work for a corporation which rapes the land (I know this to be absolutely true) or 2) be extremely poor and unemployed 4-6 months out of every year for at least 15 years.

I'll never forget we had a gender sensitivity session. And the men got offended that we said childbirth was a negative and a positive of being a woman. How dare we say it's negative. How they wished they could give birth, etc. And they completely refused to listen to us name why it is negative - harder to get hired because employers automatically assume you will be having a baby and quitting, having to put our lives on hold for a good portion of our pregnancy (at least as related to the physical demands of forestry) and at the end of all that, the pain and discomfort of being pregnancy and giving birth. We made a huge deal that the last reason was very, very, VERY minor compared to the first two, but they told us we were wimps, etc.

I've never been so frustrated as at that moment. And the fact that the higher ups were there and were male and were agreeing with the other men, yeah. I saw the writing on the wall. I continued to beat my head on that wall for a while and then finally gave up.

Now, I write letters and make posts and scream from the roof tops. Anything I can do to make men open their little, tiny eyes and see that maybe, just maybe, they should look past a small portion of our lives and see us as equals. I mean, really, they don't look at a man who is clearly tense and say "oh, he's going to have a couple of heart attacks, that'll take months to recover from and he'll probably quit" and how is childbirth any different than that?

[PrincessPerky]

Because childbirth is most often VOLUNTARY. Abortion is legal, and a fast efficient cure for being pregnant, hardly a missed day, heart attack on the other hand, not so fast and easy a cure, you gotta eat right and excersize and have good genes and all sorts of stuff. Not so fast not so easy, and truthfully not so cheap.

BTW I do not like abortion, but I will not decide what another may do with her body. (and until birth that baby IS a part of Moms body)

As far as men not knowing how hard childbirth is, there is a reason God gave that gift/curse to us, we can take it, they can't. Also men have a need to protect women from harm (we do to) so the idea that they CAUSED the problem and canNOT fix it is very hard for them to assimilate, so the lesser men, ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. (the better ones, those you marry, which is why there are more better ones now than before)

[cercis]

I don't think you get my points, Princess.

The excuse ("reason") employers use for hiring fewer women is that they will give birth and might leave the workforce and all that money spent training them will be wasted.

So, the same "reason" can be used to not hire many men - they have risk factors for heart attacks, so we'd lose all that money spent training them. And we can't hire men under 25 - too many killed in preventable car accidents. And men going through midlife crises. Etc.

Men (and far too many women - which appears to include you) point to childbirth as such a good reason to say women are less hireable and it's absolutely indefensible. Period. There are more reasons to not hire a man, but no one takes those seriously.

So, even if a woman chose not to give birth, she'd still be penalized because employers think she will. There is no way to convince an employer that you won't chose to give birth -even being sterile, they will think you will adopt and because you went to such measures will be much more likely to quit and stay home.

As far as I'm concerned, childbirth and the discomfort of being pg were absolutely the easiest part of being a woman. Losing out on my dream jobs, and listening to the crap from men employers - that was the hardest part of being a woman.

[PrincessPerky]

Thats cause your not 6 days overdue .

No really YES some men do not accept that a woman will not EVER have kids, why? cause Statistically they WILL. Either adoption or 'natural' women are GENETICALLY designed to want and bear children. FACT. Statistically they do, sorry.

Does that make us less hireable? In the eyes of an employer it is a sure fire thing. Whereas heart attack is not. I don't know the statistics of how many men have heart attacks and fail to return to work, vs how many women have children. But I have a strong suspicion that women have more kids than men have heart attacks (and do not return to work a lot more often, not to mention miss work due to Dr apointments for the kid AND for mom, heart attack dude only misses for his) And BTW MOST fields do not worry to much about it, MOST Employers don't mind.. In fact I don't know if you looked at other states but since blatant discrimination is illegal, one state has to have made the mistake already and be willing to hire a woman.

Does our childbearing habits make it ok to not hire a woman? NO, but I will not fault an employer for trying to find the cheapest labor (training and wage), I certainly shop around if I were planning on hiring a babysitter or lawn matenence or whathave you. And like I said, keeping people thinking women will work for less ahem not to sound redundant, KEEPS people thinking women WILL work for less.

[gakline]

Cercis - what do you do?

I'm a woman in engineering (not military) and I have found that people are very receptive to women in my profession. I have met some bitter women along the way and I have met some who have had a breeze. I know some very stupid ones who where only hired because they are a woman. Almost all of them have children and continued to work. None have been penalized for having children.

Sure, I've had to prove my ability, but I expect everyone has to. I have found that most of the men are more accommodating and take me under thier wing because I am a woman. Some of the women are more cutthroat than the guys. I also work on construction sites and I have found them to be very fair on gender. They expect you to carry your share, just like another one of the boys.

[PrincessPerky]

Originally Posted by gakline

I know some very stupid ones who where only hired because they are a woman.

Men women, minorities, majorities (what is the oppposite of a minority?), young, old, I have met people in all walks of life, with NO qualifications, NO brains, NO abilities, who still manage to hold a job! And I know many with all of the above, In most walks of life, who can't keep a job!

Umm why do I know more who can than can't?

[DivaJen]

An interesting book I reviewed recently at DivaTribe touches on this subject - Cult of Power, by Dr. Martha Burke. Those following this thread might want to see if their libraries carry it. It was an interesting read.

[mom-from-missouri]

They are bigger, meaner and uglier.... (sorry, bad man day with the ex...)

[Russell]

Based on my personal experience (DW, mom, sister, sister-in-law, mother-in-law) women in general prefer to do something they enjoy or something that brings them satisfaction. Men on the other hand don't care much as long as it makes money.

Sure, I enjoy working with computers but if it didn't pay well I'd probably be doing something else. In fact, I keep telling my wife I don't mind quitting my job to start a business of some sort as long as it would make more money. She always asks me questions like "you're willing to give up something you've loved since you were a kid, something you've invested so many of your years in ?" - my answer's usually "sure...as long as my new profession makes us rich".

I'm sure there are many women that also think the same way and many men that think the opposite but I think we're talking about the majority.

However, on the topic of men vs women, one thing that I'm convinced of is that men suffer from genetic mis-programming. Almost all worst offenses and crimes are conducted by men Serial killers, rapists etc - I wish there was a way to identify people with such flaws at birth using DNA or something...

[cercis]

I used to work in forestry. I beat my head against the wall for a while and then decided I needed to eat so I trained to be a paralegal. Now I get asked why I don't become an attorney (by every attorney I've worked with). I don't become an attorney because law will always be my second choice. Period.

My DH gets upset because I can't tell him what I want to be. Well, you know what? It's hard to decide what you want to be when you get shut down everytime to you try to get into a "male" career.

Here's what I've noticed in my different jobs. Women have babies and 8x out of 10, they come back to work. Men are less loyal and job hop a lot. Now, I know that's the real way to increase your wages in this world, so I get that. But, men get hired over a woman because that woman might have a baby. Big deal! That man is more than likely going to move to another job within the next 3 years.

I am absolutely done having babies, but no one believes me. And Princess, believe me, even at 4 days overdue with a baby who weighed 9.5lbs, it was still easier than a lifetime of "if only I'd been a man". Unless you've had the unconventional dream, it is hard for you to understand.

I've been butting up against it my whole life. I didn't want to play softball. That stupid ball never got to the plate when it was supposed to. I wanted to play baseball. I had that timing down. But, nope, girls played softball, period. I was decent at football in gradeschool, but girls were cheerleaders not football players. I was NOT good at basketball but kept getting put there when I tried to get into a sport I WAS good at. So I dropped all sports except pickup games with the other kids.

So, my whole life I've been fighting the gender trap.

[mom-from-missouri]

I am not putting my daughters thru it. One is playing school football. Another, is wrestling. I am letting them try it (even though I hope they outgrow it...)But on the other had, they also love to cook and sew. When the get older, I will push for them to take a basic auto mechanic class--I did, and have never regretted it. I don't feel I am a womans liber, but I do want them to be well rounded and exposed to "boy's activities" as well as girls. BTW, daughter #1 who was chubby, has lost all her chubby this football season and has gained grace I thought that child would never gain. (She used to fall over her own feet)

[cercis]

I think if I'd been born about 15 years later, my life would have been a lot easier. But, I guess I was probably a necessary cog in the wheel. A girl then woman who didn't just accept that something was a "boy" thing and wanted to know why she couldn't do it.

Until someone asks the question, no one will think about it.

I wish my mom had been more supportive. She just couldn't figure out why I wouldn't just settle down and be a "girl"

[PrincessPerky]

I believe your done having kids, why wouldn't I? We are talking about you, not the majority of women.

I am sorry your mother wasn't very supportive, mothers IMO are the biggest thing in the way of women being treated as equal as can be. (know any moms who let their husbands get away with not being a full partner in parenting? How about mothers who let their husbands loaf after a 'hard days work; cause after all being home isn't that hard, HUMPH)

[jmjj215]

Originally Posted by cercis

I think if I'd been born about 15 years later, my life would have been a lot easier. But, I guess I was probably a necessary cog in the wheel. A girl then woman who didn't just accept that something was a "boy" thing and wanted to know why she couldn't do it.

Until someone asks the question, no one will think about it.

I wish my mom had been more supportive. She just couldn't figure out why I wouldn't just settle down and be a "girl"

Cercis, did these idiots ever try and give you "LEGITIMATE" reasons? I'm trying to think of what types of problems might be presented to have a women work in the forrestry service (types of problems that come about w/ women in certain military functions is kind of what I'm thinking) and I'm having - um - a tough time.

Just curious. I'm sorry it happened.

[Fern]

"Because childbirth is most often VOLUNTARY. Abortion is legal, and a fast efficient cure for being pregnant, hardly a missed day, heart attack on the other hand, not so fast and easy a cure, you gotta eat right and excersize and have good genes and all sorts of stuff. Not so fast not so easy, and truthfully not so cheap."

Perky, PUH-LEEZE do not imply or suggest that abortion is a "fast, efficient" easy solution to pregnancy. C'mon. And a significant number of pregnancies are unplanned, so not true to say they are always voluntary.

[cercis]

Jesse, no reasons were given. I think one person tried to claim that they hired the most qualified person, but it's a small career field, and I had a pretty good idea about the men they were hiring.

Actually, I said the USDA Forest Service and I did mean them, but the most blatent was from the Oklahoma Forestry Service. Supposedly they've taken out the subjective measures and it's all based on scores on a test they give and a scoring system of your experience (years and relevancy) and college GPA. There were 3 positions open, the applicants were mostly from my class in college, so I knew their GPA's to the second decimal place. The test - we were given our ranking on that test. I knew the experience. I scored 2nd on that test. My GPA was the 2nd highest (one guy took 5 years in the 4 year program and made a 4.0) and my experience was comparable. 3 positions. Clearly I should have gotten one - right? I had 2nd highest test score, 2nd highest GPA and equal experience. But nope, no job. They hired all men. One was the 4.0 guy (intelligent but dumb as a post when it came to actually applying what he learned) and the other 2 had GPAs which were well below mine. Well below. All men. The state, at that time, had 2 women in the forestry service, both clerical positions.

With the forest service, it's a little more sneaky. Everyone is supposed to pay their dues by being a seasonal worker. But getting a degree is supposed to cut that time down signficantly. However, given half a chance (a guy who is only marginally less qualified than a woman) they will hire the man. There are limited permanent full-time positions that open up, so as a woman you end up applying for every opening for years, while putting in your time as a seasonal employee until finally you are significantly more qualified than anyone else. This generally takes about 15 years. Maybe less if you can make some political friends. More if you make the wrong friends.

There is a feeling, as expressed during our gender sensitivity training, that women have "issues". That once/month women need off for cramps. That we have babies and will need off for childbirth not to mention that will pg we will not be able to hike as much or work with tree-marking paint. When it was pointed out that none of the women there had ever taken off for cramps, well, that didn't change their minds. When it was pointed out that not every woman was planning to have a child, still didn't change their minds. Women over all, have "issues".