Wealthy People are Dishonest

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by Joan.of.the.Arch

Nah, nah, I'm figuring Boosami has a payday lending business

That's a very good topic for this thread - predatory lending. It is perfectly legal, unfortunately, but is it a good honest business or does it take advantage of the poor and uneducated? Just because something is legal doesn't necessarily mean it is honest, or does it?

[EEinNJ]

It's entirely possible for a wealthy person to make their money honestly, through talent and hard work. Think of a famous author or musician, or an NFL player or actor.

Now replace "person" with corporation, and think of all the "gotcha" practices of banks, credit card co.s, car rental outfits like AVIS that just ripped off my wife... But these corporations are run by people- dishonest people who look for ways to systematically extract more profit from their customers, and their minions, who say "I was only following orders".

[boosami]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

That's a very good topic for this thread - predatory lending. It is perfectly legal, unfortunately, but is it a good honest business or does it take advantage of the poor and uneducated? Just because something is legal doesn't necessarily mean it is honest, or does it?

Generally speaking I believe if something is legal, then it is possible to do it in an honest way.

In my opinion, predatory lending is a legal practice that was often executed with disregard to honesty. If a lender explained the types of loans, gave you multiple options, and you chose the risky one to get lower payments, that's your fault--the lender was honest about your options and consequences. If the lender forced you into a sub-prime 80/20 split with a 1/1 uncapped APM and acted like that was the "best" or "only" option, that is dishonest on the part of the lender.

The former happened to me when I refinanced a mortgage. Would my lender have given me the more risky loan if I wanted it? Sure. Was he being legal and honest? Absolutely--so honest in fact that he gave me an option that existed but was not the best idea. I wanted to know the options and he didn't omit anything at all, good or bad.

[disneysteve]

Good point, boosami. Somehow I suspect that most in the predatory lending business don't explain the terms and conditions. They probably just hand over a document of fine print and legalese and consider that to be informed consent.

Heck, I don't think that most people who take an "instant" tax refund even comprehend that what they are actually getting is a loan and I'd bet that not 1 in 5 of them could tell you the interest rate on that loan.

[bones72]

Disney steve, yes there are many nefarious practices in the car business. I have seen most of them. And I have for years wanted the manufactors to demand one-price on a straight buy. With the tightening of invoice to sticker(hovering around 4% markup) that is coming. Personally I don't like negotiating, as it demeans the product, and the sales process. There are more important issues to address such as over-financing, hidden charges, document fees, and nearly worthless extra-cost warranties. Yes, I agree, when I sold cars in the "City"(I'm in a small rural dealership now) customers hated buying cars because of the extreme high-pressure sales tactics. Here, I personally know 95% of my customers, and I can do my job right!

[Goldy1]

I won't insult my intelligence and make blanket statements about groups of people.

[cptacek]

Originally Posted by Inkstain82

Capitalism is about *mutually beneficial exchanges*.

Yes, you charge more for the product than your discount price. But you took the time to look for the discount, which your customer didn't want to do. He valued his time, you valued his money, you both win.

I like this.

I know a guy who refurbishes laptops and sells them. He sold me a bunch of them for $155. I sold them for $200 (except to my sister...she got $155) to relatives and friends around here. Was that immoral? They don't know him. They wouldn't have gotten a laptop for that cheap any other way. Was it bad that I made a $45 profit for installing antivirus software and Office (all licensed correctly) and delivering?

I don't think so. I didn't force them to buy the computer. They got a good laptop, with a few scratches on the cover, and I made a profit.

[bones72]

Cpatcek, sounds like a solid business deal. Uh, got any left?

[maat55]

I think it is as simple as poor people do not understand how sacrifice and saving can make you wealthy. It is easier for them to claim foul than do the work.

[cptacek]

bones72, I reserved 6 and got them all sold in like 2 days. I'll have to see if he has any more, and when I can get down to Wichita to pick more up. I'll p.m. you if I get more

[bones72]

Predatory lending practices show up in the car biz too. Buy-here-pay-here lots charge 20% or so, and if you are late on one payment, they can pick up the car. Also, even new-car dealers over-charge interest if they can get away with it.

[lucmas]

Isn't taking advantage of a situation or person one of the cornerstones of capitalism? Buying something at a discount, selling at a premium?

There's only so much you can "earn" by the sweat of your brow, being diligent and hard working. Perhaps those who think they're virtuous and hard-working resent those that have been more successful with less work.

[EEinNJ]

Originally Posted by lucmas

Isn't taking advantage of a situation or person one of the cornerstones of capitalism? Buying something at a discount, selling at a premium?

There's only so much you can "earn" by the sweat of your brow, being diligent and hard working. Perhaps those who think they're virtuous and hard-working resent those that have been more successful with less work.

Is there an echo in here? Or do I have an impersonator?

[lovcom]

Originally Posted by lucmas

Isn't taking advantage of a situation or person one of the cornerstones of capitalism?

No, it is not, and it seems you do not understand capitalism.

There is nothing immoral or wrong about taking on a profit to an item for sale, and I am surprised you'd think this. And this is not taking advantage.

This is not to say capitalism can't be abused...of course it can, but to make such broad statements about it "taking advantage" is silly, to be sure.

How is the shop keeper supposed to pay the rent, the light bill, his employees if he does not add a profit margin?

There is nothing immoral about this, and if you think so, then you'd be happier in the good ole USSR ;-)

[EEinNJ]

Originally Posted by lovcom

No, it is not, and it seems you do not understand capitalism.

There is nothing immoral or wrong about taking on a profit to an item for sale, and I am surprised you'd think this. And this is not taking advantage.

This is not to say capitalism can't be abused...of course it can, but to make such broad statements about it "taking advantage" is silly, to be sure.

How is the shop keeper supposed to pay the rent, the light bill, his employees if he does not add a profit margin?

There is nothing immoral about this, and if you think so, then you'd be happier in the good ole USSR ;-)

I was the one who originally posted this, for some reason lucmas copied it verbatim. The context seems to have been lost along the way, perhaps because "taking advantage" may seem to imply cheating or being dishonest. In any competition, unless you have an advantage, you don't win. Competition is fundamental to Capitalism, and there are winners and losers. An advantage may range from a better product or service, to preying on a customers ignorance ( car repair ripoffs), buying a foreclosure, all the way to a corporate monopoly. Some are honest, some are not.

The USSR is long gone, and in every remaining communist country, just about everybody is poor (Cuba, N Korea, etc). Snarky comment was uncalled for.

[highsavings]

I don't think wealthy people are anymore dishonest than people who have smaller bank accounts.

[BudgetHowTo]

I grew up with parents that always used line like "I wish we had the money..." or "I wish we had their [the well to do] kind of money..."

How does the saying go? "Wish one hand. Sh** in the other. See which one fills faster." I am sorry to be so crude, but the saying is so accurate for most people's view of money. They want more, but either they do not want to work for it or do not know enough about how to work best to get it.

The truth of it is, my parents will never have the money nor will they ever be wealthy. They do not know how to manage their money and live within their means. My parents were always too busy wishing for more money, but just ended up with a handful of the other stuff.

In your case, I think that jealousy and envy are the two biggest reasons for those people's unbased statements. Let people without money be jealous and envious of your financial savvy. For those of us who will put in the work to be better with money and, therefore, have more money, we will pull through.

[stephenb]

I've found that there are honest and dishonest wealthy people, just like there are honest and dishonest poor people. For some people, the amount of money they have might affect their level of honesty, but I don't think it's the determining factor.