Car died-moving forward

[elessar78]

The road to being debt free took a little detour in the past few days.

Anyway, the motor in my car died. The garage is asking $2,500 tops to fix it and I'm having a debate on what my next step is. We have this kind of cash on hand, but were stockpiling because of a baby that's on the way.

Option 1- pay the garage's quote. They're going to put in a used motor that only has 50K miles on it, as opposed to mine that had 120K on it. Essentially, if the motor is in good condition, extending the life of my car (which otherwise was in pretty good condition).

Option 2-find another garage. Basically I did research and found the part online for $700. The cost for the motor that the above garage found is $1,200 but he won't do the work unless I use the motor from his sources. Because he "trusts his source" and they'll guarantee the motor for 90 days. Essentially, it turns into a $500 discussion, which I don't think is a lot of money in this regard.

Option 3- don't repair and buy a used car for $2,500. My thinking is that I trust the quality and long-term reliability of my repaired car over that of one I find in the open market.

Option 4- Move on and buy a more expensive ($2,500+) used car to address growing family needs anyway. I don't think this is a serious option, because we don't have all the cash for this and would need to finance part of the purchase.

Anyway, I listed my options. I know I'm a bit leading with the option I'm leaning towards but please offer any insight or lines of thinking I may have missed.

[bjl584]

What's wrong with the engine? It may be something that you can fix yourself.

[elessar78]

Nah, one of the piston rods snapped and trashed the inside of the engine.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

What sort of car is it? What would you replace it with? How much of a car loan?

Personally I'd get the loan and a new car. But hey I keep praying one of my cars is crashed and burned and we'd be forced to make a decision.

But then again maybe you'd have more luck with your cars.

[elessar78]

It's a 03 Honda Accord. Great car before the incident.

[bjl584]

Replacing a piston rod, piston, rehoning the piston wall, etc. is a fairly big job, but it's not anything worth $2500. There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to source a used motor and/or parts to have it repaired, and there's no reason why the mechanic that quoted you shouldn't be willing to do the job with parts that you found. I would find a different mechanic.

[MonkeyMama]

I'd replace the motor. Sounds like a good car, and you already listed reasons not to go another route. A $2500 car is a more risky purchase than replacing the motor on a good car that you are familiar with. There is no way I would get a newer car, in your shoes. I don't know your entire situation, but if your goal is to be debt free, financing a vehicle isn't exactly going to help you.

Personally we have completely stayed out of debt in the first place, making decisions like the above. I Was going to say, it depends on the car, but a Honda with so few miles is rather valuable, and worth fixing.

Though I am curious what happened to the motor. At 120k miles? Ouch.

I have an excellent mechanic who quoted about $2500 to replace my Toyota motor 10 years ago. I am no car expert, but doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. Though I would certainly get some other quotes if this is not a highly trusted mechanic. (I didn't replace the motor because the car was 20 years old. )

[creditcardfree]

I would replace the motor. Sounds like a decent car that should take you far for $2500. Never know what kind of car $2500 will buy, either. I'd go with what you know.

[elessar78]

Originally Posted by MonkeyMama

Though I am curious what happened to the motor. At 120k miles? Ouch.)

Well I was at my in-laws for lunch. Pulled out of the driveway and it died on me. It had a little life left. Engine wouldn't turn over, but you could hear it trying to. So I had my brother in-law look at it, he's considered the family car expert. Anyway, he had a suspiscion it was the fuel pump or something so he did something, I consider, questionable... he tried to gun the engine in it's idle state which made it come to life, but not on it's own (hope that makes sense) and it eventually died while he was doing this.

My gut feeling is that he exacerbated the problem.

[lovcom]

Elessar78, not to offend, but it sound like that Honda was neglicted? Could there be some truth here? Keeping a car in tip top shape is like saving money in the bank. I've owned mostly Hondas in the last 30 years and they all went 200,000+ miles before I sold them with nothing wrong. A Honda with under 200,000 miles is not considered a car with high milage, as they can easily go 250k to 300k with proper maintenence. From what you describe, it sounds as though the timing belt broke?

As to what to do now? I'd put a motor in it after getting a 2nd and 3rd opinion on the cost, and guarentee. Or get a 2009 Yaris with power nearly everything, best MPG in it's class and out the door for under $13,000 including tax, license, shipping, etc....3 or 5 door models. With proper care that car will last 300,000 miles and sipping gas all the way. The Honda Fit is a better car (slightly) but not worth $2,500 more IMHO.

[elessar78]

Originally Posted by lovcom

Elessar78, not to offend, but it sound like that Honda was neglicted? Could there be some truth here? Keeping a car in tip top shape is like saving money in the bank. I've owned mostly Hondas in the last 30 years and they all went 200,000+ miles before I sold them with nothing wrong. A Honda with under 200,000 miles is not considered a car with high milage, as they can easily go 250k to 300k with proper maintenence. From what you describe, it sounds as though the timing belt broke?

As to what to do now? I'd put a motor in it after getting a 2nd and 3rd opinion on the cost, and guarentee. Or get a 2009 Yaris with power nearly everything, best MPG in it's class and out the door for under $13,000 including tax, license, shipping, etc....3 or 5 door models. With proper care that car will last 300,000 miles and sipping gas all the way. The Honda Fit is a better car (slightly) but not worth $2,500 more IMHO.

None taken. As much assurance as I can give you that I'm almost a neurotic Honda owner. Where was I going when this happened? To get my oil changed at about 2600 miles. Read the post right above yours as to what I think happened. And I totally agree with you, what burns me is that I expected this car to last AT LEAST another 80K.

The 2003 Accords (my model) are the first generation WITHOUT a timing belt. They actually have a timing chain that does not need to be replaced (unless it breaks).

Now, getting a second or third opinion on the car requires towing it to another service station which is at least $75 per direction. Do you think that's still money well spent? At least another $150-$300?

[bjl584]

Well, a bad fuel pump wouldn't cause a rod to break. It would prevent the car from starting in the first place. It's more likely a result of not enough oil or a microfracture in the rod that occured during manufacturing. Your brother may have done something by reving the engine though. I would fix the car as oppsed to getting a new one. And, if you have AAA you can get it towed at no charge.

[tripods68]

I certainly would shop around for prices. You might find someone who cab can do for $2K. But I wouldn't buy another vehicle. It sounds you really would like to keep this car.

[wincrasher]

Well it's certainly worth putting the money into it to keep it going. A 03 accord is worth alot more than $2500.

Don't fret about what your brother in law did. Revving the engine wouldn't damage it.

A rod break is a fluke. Very rarely does this happen.

I'd look into the cost of a new crate motor - it may not be alot more than the used one. At least you'd have a basis of comparison.

Like others have said, shop around. Trust is key though - it's worth paying extra for someone to do such a big job that you can count on down the road.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I agree a 2003 Accord should last a lot longer. I have a 99 Corolla with no plans to replace it.

Given the new data I'd keep it for $2500.

I wouldn't pay $2500 to replace the motor in my 2000 Ford Focus, to give you a comparison of cars to own and fix and not fix.

[elessar78]

Apparently, brother-in-law talked called my wife today and felt very guilty about it. I hadn't spoken to him since the incident, so it wasn't like he felt guilty because I told him. She said he even tried to offer her money, which she rightfully turned down. I'm ticked at him, but I know he meant well. He just practiced bad judgment.

He even admitted that he heard something snap.

Anyway, we're still discussing our options. Thanks again for the responses.

[red92s]

It would be very difficult to do anything while poking about under the hood that would cause the type of failure you are describing. In all likelihood, if a part is going to fail catastrophically like that, whatever he did probably just initiated the failure about 150 feet before it would have happened anyways.

I think a lot of people here are underestimating the labor involved with removing and installing a modern engine. Clearances are tight, spaces are small, and connections are plentiful. The radiator probably has to come out, air conditioning parts likely need to be disconnected, drive axles need to be separated, the transmission has to come off and be refitted to the new motor, and there are probably 30+ belts, fuel, electrical, and fluid connections that all need to be disconnected and then reconnected.

If the total bill is going to be $2500 and the engine is quoted at $1200, that means labor and materials is $1300. I'd guess that there is $200 in fluids along on a job like that (coolant, oil, ATF, etc). Shop labor is normally in the $70 an hour range, so I'd guess they are budgeting 15-16 hours on the job. I could easily see removing an engine, swapping the transmission, prepping the new engine, and reinstalling it being a 2 day job for a single guy . . . so I think their labor quote is fair.

It looks like that engine sells for $500-800 pretty regularly on Ebay. Most shops won't want to use an engine off of Ebay since they don't have much recourse if they find a problem with it. They want to use a supplier they conduct business with normally so that if problems arise they have a way to resolve them. They also need to make a profit off of the parts to keep the doors open and the lights on.

In short, I think your quote is a fair one, and I think it's the best course of action to repair the car. You MIGHT find a better quote (by a couple hundred bucks) by shopping around, but any potential savings will quickly be eroded by transportation and investment of your time, not to mention additional loss of use of the car.

[elessar78]

Red, please see other post of mine for above about what BIL did to cause the damage (furthermore he's kinda admitted that he thinks he caused it).

But you're pretty right on with a lot of the observations. He estimated 16 hours of labor. Mentioned fluids cost money as well. On eBay, motors for my car were going for around $500 plus $200 to ship. And he doesn't want to use one of those because he can't vouch for them. I've been telling my wife that the quote may be a few hundred dollars better somewhere else, but not by a thousand (which would make it worth it).

So in the last twelve hours or so, options 2 and 3 are out and option 4 is weakening.

[red92s]

Originally Posted by elessar78

Red, please see other post of mine for above about what BIL did to cause the damage (furthermore he's kinda admitted that he thinks he caused it).

I read your post, and while I'm not entirely sure what he did, I can pretty safely say that without tools and without opening the engine up, there is very, very little one could do to cause a connecting rod to fail if it wasn't on the verge of failure already.

I replaced the engine in my 1992 Honda Prelude with an engine I bought on the internet, by myself, in my driveway, in december (when I was 18 and had more time than money and sense). When the engine showed up the throttle position sensor and oxygen sensor were smashed . . . another $200 down the drain. Buying a used engine and having it shipped from a seller you dont have a good relationship with is a questionable decision at best.

[elessar78]

Originally Posted by red92s

I read your post, and while I'm not entirely sure what he did, I can pretty safely say that without tools and without opening the engine up, there is very, very little one could do to cause a connecting rod to fail if it wasn't on the verge of failure already.

I replaced the engine in my 1992 Honda Prelude with an engine I bought on the internet, by myself, in my driveway, in december (when I was 18 and had more time than money and sense). When the engine showed up the throttle position sensor and oxygen sensor were smashed . . . another $200 down the drain. Buying a used engine and having it shipped from a seller you dont have a good relationship with is a questionable decision at best.

"Force-starting" the engine wouldn't do that? I mean the CEL kept blinking on and off as he was doing this and it sounded like (sorry) crap. I won't belabor the point since I don't know much about how an engine works. Call it a gut instinct based on how I what I observed before, during, and after.