It's so hard to save money when....

[KTP]

Maybe the top tax rate should be 91% or more.

I would feel a LOT better about paying 45+% of my sub 200k income in federal, state, medicare, and SS taxes if I knew that Miley Cyrus, Brittany Spears, Donald Trump, etc, etc, were paying 91+% of their income.

Then we could all be equal.

Actually it would be quite a bit better society if nobody actually got paid and the government just handed out the same amount of food and goods to each person regardless of the work they did. The person mowing the grass, the lady having 8 kids when she already has 6, the guy too stoned to get out of bed to bother working, the engineer spending 12 hours a day to get a project out the door and the doctor who spent 10 years studying should all be equally compensated.

Think how wonderful a world that would be.

[kork13]

Originally Posted by KTP

Actually it would be quite a bit better society if nobody actually got paid and the government just handed out the same amount of food and goods to each person regardless of the work they did. The person mowing the grass, the lady having 8 kids when she already has 6, the guy too stoned to get out of bed to bother working, the engineer spending 12 hours a day to get a project out the door and the doctor who spent 10 years studying should all be equally compensated.

Think how wonderful a world that would be.

I'm sorry, my sarcasm-detector is busted at the moment... I hope you're not serious. In theory, yes, it would be great. But to implement it causes some major problems. The Soviet Union tried, and its citizens suffered tremendously as a result.

[blankcheck]

Originally Posted by kork13

I'm sorry, my sarcasm-detector is busted at the moment... I hope you're not serious. In theory, yes, it would be great. But to implement it causes some major problems. The Soviet Union tried, and its citizens suffered tremendously as a result.

So they all started leaving there and coming here...yet I wonder how many of them are mad about how much tax they pay here.

It's all relative; compared to just about any other country, democracy or not, a U.S. resident still has a greater chance of upward mobility than anywhere else. I agree that the current tax system is unfair, but I'm not good at faking indignation when I don't feel it. I guess I'm defective because I didn't cry when my 457 and IRAs dropped by 40% in the stock market either. These things happen, and they may not happen in my favor. KTP made a great point, which is that you do everything in your power to control your destiny.

[KTP]

Originally Posted by kork13

I'm sorry, my sarcasm-detector is busted at the moment... I hope you're not serious. In theory, yes, it would be great. But to implement it causes some major problems. The Soviet Union tried, and its citizens suffered tremendously as a result.

If you can't see that under Obama, with his stated fact that wealth redistribution is a good thing, is moving this country toward EXACTLY the scenario I described, then more is broken than just your sarcasm detector

What motivation will there be for Joe A to work his butt off if Joe B gets everything free from the government and sits on his butt. This is exactly what national healthcare, loan cramdowns, stimulous checks, etc are doing, slowly but surely.

But hey, who wouldn't vote in the guy that is going to give them a free lunch...

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

M3racer, I'm trying to get some understanding of what your life must be like to earn $250,000+ ( I think that is what you are saying) yet finding it hard to save. First of all, I think you might be exaggerating a bit about the difficulty because you have written in these forums about investments, so I guess you've saved some of your earnings (unless you inherited it or something.)

So what I did was put $251,000 into a cost of living calculator, to compare San Diego, CA to St. Louis, MO. I chose San Diego because it seems to be have a fairly high COL so I'm letting that represent the place in which you might live. I chose St. Louis, because it is where I live and would give me a better feel for what your money might be able to buy, if the calculator is on target.

Cost of Living Comparison, Salary Calculator - CityRating.com

This calculator tells me that a life costing $251,000 in San Diego is equivalent to one costing $210,000 in St. Louis. I wish I knew whether that calculator takes taxes into consideration. You seem to be saying that your high taxes coupled with your high COL is dragging you down. Is that right? I think that few people in my area earning $210,000 would seriously feel beleaguered. Um, I had just read, though I think not at the site I linked, that the average MO income is $28,100. Sometimes we tend to judge our own wealth against the wealth of those around us. Perhaps you live where there are many with much, much more than you. If you lived in a place like I do, I think you might not feel so beleaguered. Heck, you could pay less tax and have a lower cost living if you lived here and earned the COL equivalent pay.

[KTP]

Even if your calculator is correct, that is a HUGE difference of $41,000. Assume both people want to live the same lifestyle, the person in MO can tuck $41k more a year in the bank. He is going to be able to retire MUCH earlier than the West coaster. This is why straight limit caps on stimulous payments and housing credits are unfair. They don't take into account cost of living in different areas.

[m3racer]

JOTA...I don't live a high lifestyle. I wear scrubs to work everyday, drive an 11 year old car fully paid and rent a small 1 bdrm apt. I live a very modest lifestyle. I sure would love to buy a nice house, a nice car, etc, but in reality I know I can't afford it. I don't have a high COL by any means. The only debt I carry is student loan debt. I refuse to carry more debt irresponsibly. I've seen my parents go into bankruptcy because they borrowed too much. Unfortunately too many people fail to take into consideration the full range of possible outcomes when they borrow $$$ for things.

I can't help but think of what I could accomplish if I could retain more of my income. I certainly wouldn't be in serious SL debt.

I just have a fundamental problem with the idea that someone else is entitled to the hard money that I've earned. Some people may not feel that way but I do. I find it very discouraging. So maybe Joe blow might think I'm whining but I'm almost certain that if they were in my shoes they would feel the same. Nothing was given to me on a silver platter. I've been in the position of being dirt poor but I worked my way out of it.

BTW, I do save. I don't have issues with spending habits.

[DebbieL]

No, the person in MO would likely earn less. Those are to basically compare what wage you would need for an equivalent lifestyle in another area. The actual wages in lower cost of living areas are usually lower.

[m3racer]

Originally Posted by blankcheck

Person A pays 15% on 30K.
Person B pays 45% on 200k and complains about it.
Person A thinks Person B is an automatic jerk.

On the flip side....Person B may think Person A is an ignorant ingrate.

[KTP]

I guess I just don't understand why if you work hard at something you are not entitled to reap more benefits than others. If I chose to work 2 jobs and 60 hours a week, why can't I keep as much a percentage of my wages as the person who works only one job? Why do I have to get taxed at 30 to 40% while they get taxed at 15%?

Should we extend this *right* for everyone to have the same benefits to other areas?

Should the person who works out 5 times a week, 3 hours a day be forced to marry the overweight couch potato? Seems only fair right?

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Debbie, not necessarily true that you earn less in a lower COLA. That's how they get you to move.

[blankcheck]

Originally Posted by KTP

I guess I just don't understand why if you work hard at something you are not entitled to reap more benefits than others. If I chose to work 2 jobs and 60 hours a week, why can't I keep as much a percentage of my wages as the person who works only one job? Why do I have to get taxed at 30 to 40% while they get taxed at 15%?

Should we extend this *right* for everyone to have the same benefits to other areas?

Should the person who works out 5 times a week, 3 hours a day be forced to marry the overweight couch potato? Seems only fair right?

Actually that's the only point I don't get. I've already said, I agree that the current tax system is unfair. But no matter how idealistic you are, you are not entitled to anything. I don't lose sleep over these things, while I've had friends give themselves ulcers despite making 30-40% more than me. But if there's an underlying problem with other forms of economy, hey, shout away. Honestly, it doesn't bother me. This large government supposition has happened in other bad economic times, and this one is no different. The request for a better system is fine, but lamenting it like this as a terrible downfall of our society, it's melodramatic. That type of presentation of information just leads to an unnecessary clash of people in different situations.

If you are so sure that others would feel the same way you do, if they were in your position, then how can you be so sure that you wouldn't feel the other way in theirs?

[m3racer]

Originally Posted by blankcheck

If you are so sure that others would feel the same way you do, if they were in your position, then how can you be so sure that you wouldn't feel the other way in theirs?

I can't speak for KTP but personally I have been on minimum wage. Never once did I begrudge those with a higher income. I certainly didn't feel that they should be pay much more than me. Didn't they earn the right to keep that money? It was their own "blood, sweat, & tears" that got them there. They're being rewarded for THEIR own hard work & sacrifice and not mine.

[KTP]

Look at it however you like, I just feel that giving handouts to one group of people via much lower taxes and stimulous payments and taking things away from another group of people to pay for it is wrong.

If they wanted to stimulate the economy, how about just giving stimulous payments to people in the military and their family. I could get behind that, since I am very thankful they are risking their life for me and would gladly give them money out of my pocket. When they give money to octomom or a person who bought a 600k house on a 60k income, then I have a problem.

Why do we even have an income tax at all? It certainly does not promote hard work and saving. Wouldn't property and consumption taxes be a much better and fair way to go? When the rich people flaunt their wealth by buying those Lexus autos and mcmansions, they are going to pay through the nose via property and consumption taxes. I could even get by with an exemption for certain staple foods.

Income tax is flawed.