Income Tax question

[SamualACarver]

I recently watched a video named "America: Freedom to Fascism" by Aaron Russo. (Google it) The video is about Income Tax and that it is Illegal. I dont know if I believe it or not. The video does give some very compelling evidence. Also there have been quite a few people that have won Supreme Court cases, against paying taxes. The Supreme Court ruled that the people didn't owe Income Taxes because they are illegal. Also though many people have also lost court cases over the same thing. It was pointed out though that the cases that the people lost were in lower courts, and Supreme Court cases were not allowed to be used as evidence. One judge went so far as to say (after denying the witness a chance to site a Supreme Court case and asked why) " I am the law here. I dont care what the Supreme Court rules. It doesn't matter."

Anyway it is a highly debated topic. I dont know what I believe, but I would recommend that everyone see this video, just to be enlightened incase it is true. It is a very good video with X IRS agents and even politicians supporting the fact that Income Taxes are Illegal. I would like to here what others that have seen the video (or not) think about the whole Income Taxes are Illegal thing.

It brought up some questions for me about Income Taxes.
For example I am a carpenter. If I were to do some work for a friend of mine, say build him a house or something. He supplied the materials, I just give him my labor. I build the house but I dont charge him anything for it. Yet had I charged him it would have been $25,000 in labor. Does my friend have to pay Income Taxes on that $25,000 worth of labor? Why/Why not?

[MYOM]

Because it is considered Barter. There are a few accounting guidelines to remember when you conduct barter transactions. Keep in mind that all barter income is dealt with on the cash basis, and the IRS treats barter as income received whether you use accrual-basis or cash-basis accounting. Also, you must report and pay taxes on barter income for the year in which it accrues; if your business is profitable you should try not to have unspent barter credits at the end of the fiscal year. (If you're unprofitable, and your barter income does not make you profitable, the IRS won't tax it.)

Dan Clemons

[kork13]

I'll rely on our forebears for my argument:

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 of the Constitution of the United States of America

and

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

~16th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America

The Constitution (the very basis for law, what is legal and illegal) states explicitly that taxes may be imposed in order to provide for the needs of the country. End of story.

Yes, people can raise arguments about anything, and I say let them. They're loonies.

[SamualACarver]

Originally Posted by MYOM

Because it is considered Barter. There are a few accounting guidelines to remember when you conduct barter transactions. Keep in mind that all barter income is dealt with on the cash basis, and the IRS treats barter as income received whether you use accrual-basis or cash-basis accounting. Also, you must report and pay taxes on barter income for the year in which it accrues; if your business is profitable you should try not to have unspent barter credits at the end of the fiscal year. (If you're unprofitable, and your barter income does not make you profitable, the IRS won't tax it.)

Dan Clemons

So from what you are saying my friend would have to pay Income Taxes on that $25,000 worth of labor I did for him? Since The IRS treats Barter as income.

[jIM_Ohio]

Our country was founded by people which did not want to pay taxes to England.

If our fore fathers saw the taxes we pay now, they would probably ask to become a colony again- it is cheaper.

But the real founding principal was taxation without representation. We elect people which raise our taxes.

But what kork posted is fact- taxes are in the constitution and an additional amendment has been passed allowing government to garnish wages to collect taxes.

If you do not want to pay taxes you can renounce your US citizenship and move to a country with no taxes. A few middle countries come to mind- they profiled these on 60 minutes a few weeks ago.

[SamualACarver]

I am playing devils advocate here. I want to hear both sides.

The argument from Anti Income Tax people
First Income Taxes arent Illegal. Just that they are Voluntary and therefore people cannot be forced to pay (compulsory) Anti Tax people say that is why all IRS agents and Tax Code laws all say Voluntary when referring to paying Income Tax. For them to say they are Compulsory would be Illegal.

The argument from the Anti-Income Taxe people is that the 16th amendment does allow for Income Tax, but what a person makes working or for their labor IS Not Income as defined by the Constitution, Income is not defined anywhere in the Tax Code (they say because it would prove that Income Taxes are Illegal, because it would either A: conflict with the Constitutions definition or B: If they used the same definition as the Constitution it would not apply to individuals as they would have us believe because it would violate other Constitutional Laws). Also the Constitution states that there can only be two types of Taxes Direct and In-direct Taxes and all Federal Taxes (if Compulsory not Voluntary) must be of those types. If it is not one of those then it would be Unconstitutional. The Constitution gives strict rules for these Taxes. Direct Taxes quote from the Constitution "direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states pursuant to a census or enumeration being taken." Direct Taxes are paid directly to the Gov. and are imposed directly on individuals. They may be levied as a simple head or as a pole tax or related to another standard such as wealth,rank profession, etc. Federal Taxes that fall into this category are income estate and gift taxes. The thing that is ignored is that the Constitution states that these Taxes MUST BE imposed in proportion to state population. To be apportioned as they must, be means that before the Tax could be enforced Congress would first have to 1) Decide the exact amount that they want. 2) Apportion a fixed percentage of that total against each state in proportion to its population 3) Determine the different rates for each state so that each state could collect the total amount apportioned. This would be very hard to do and that is why our Founding Fathers made it that way. So that it would be hard and would only be done if the Gov. was in desperate need for money. Also everyone would know the total needed and what portion each person in a state had to pay. It would be the same for all people in that state.

That is all I will add for know. It does sound more like the kind of stuff (especially the last part) from the same people that said "No Taxation without representation." Our Founding Fathers hated Taxes. The understood some were needed. That is why things like alcohol and tobacco were pretty much always allowed to be taxed. Things like that are In direct Taxes. Basically that means you can avoid them, by not buying something that is taxed. The 16th Amendment had to be added in 1919, it was not what our Founding Fathers wanted or they would have added it. Then (according to Anti Income Tax people) it was never ratified. The records are available to show that it wasn't ratified by the states as a matter of fact many states were against an Income Tax. Still even with the 16th Amendment the money a person makes working isnt Income. I will include some of that info in the next post. If this topic gets much interest. If you want to read some of the info I have found check out "The Federal Mafia" By Irwin Schiff. I found a free PDF version of the book. Like I said before IF this is true more people need to know about it and we need to do something about it. I dont know about you, but if I didn't have to pay Income Taxes I would be able to live much more comfortably and not worry so much about bills etc. In case someone says the country cant function without Income Tax. I can show the argument why that is not true. All NECESSARY Gov. expenses are paid by other Taxes. Roads are paid by the Gas Tax, Schools from property Tax Etc. Which are all In Direct Taxes. Or Taxes that an individual can choose not to pay.

[jIM_Ohio]

I also once tried to patent the wheel because there was no patent for it at the US patent office. That was not as ridiculous as the last post.

[disneysteve]

The "taxes are illegal" scam has been circulating around the internet since the first 14K dial-up modem, and probably even before that. It is right up there with the Nigerian diplomat who wants to send your millions and all the products "guaranteed" to enlarge certain parts of your anatomy.

[MonkeyMama]

????????

I am a tax professional and all I See is gibberish. Income is not defined? LOL. I think it is defined over millions of words in the tax code. There's a few chapters on what defines income.

I am not aware of any court cases were people were given a pass on paying taxes (because it was illegal).

Yeah, it's about as solid as a Nigerian scam. Agreed.

[MonkeyMama]

BTW, if you don't pay your taxes the IRS has the authority to seize your assets. It doesn't appear very voluntary to me.

[boosami]

"Illegal income taxes" is basically a conspiracy theory. If we didn't have to pay taxes, the government wouldn't have been able to fund the program that faked the moon landing.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by boosami

"Illegal income taxes" is basically a conspiracy theory. If we didn't have to pay taxes, the government wouldn't have been able to fund the program that faked the moon landing.

I'm sure it cost a fortune to stage the 9/11 attacks also.

[SamualACarver]

What is the answer to my other question, about me building a house for a friend, I give him $25,000 in labor for free does he owe taxes on that?


Like I said I am undecided on the Anti Income Tax thing. I have read the Irwin Shiff book and saw the movie America:Freedom to Fascism. It is hard to give all of the proof that I have seen.

About the court cases though that is true. I will find the case numbers so other people can check for themselves. In the video they interview a woman that was on a jury that found a man not guilty of not paying Income Tax since the Gov. could not show the law that requires people to pay Income Taxes.

Before everyone just instantly says it isnt true why not at least watch the video America:Freedom to Fascism. I would especialy like to hear from a tax pro that has seen the movie. So that they could point out what is false about the video.

[tripods68]

So are you guys in favor of providing social services like medicals and educations to illegal immigrants and their family that costs taxpayers billions and billions every year? Those in favor say YES, or NO?

[MonkeyMama]

Well, if you saw it in a video it must be true!

I wouldn't waste my time, everything you have stated is clearly untrue gibberish. That is the perspective of the tax pro.

[MonkeyMama]

Some sane info:

The 16th Amendment Tax Protestor Income Tax Scam

[kork13]

Originally Posted by SamualACarver

What is the answer to my other question, about me building a house for a friend, I give him $25,000 in labor for free does he owe taxes on that?

MYOM outlined this a bit earlier--yes, he would owe taxes on that $25k, because it's considered a barter relationship. Similar to receiving a gift of $25k in cash.


That video takes advantage of the fact that you can spin "evidence" almost any way you like. What the video fails to do is cite specifically where its sources of information, evidence, etc. actually came from. I'll be honest, I tried watching that video, but even trying to skip through it in search of something valid, something more akin to logic than theory, I couldn't find it. I couldn't put up with the video, it was painful. No, I didn't watch it through, but I don't want to. Back it up with logical, sound, factual-based evidence, I'll give you a chance. Until then, give it a rest.

Just as others have mentioned, it's just another conspiracy theorist who has sparked interest. Yes, we went to the moon. No, we didn't organize the 9/11 attacks. No, Marilyn Monroe did not conspire against JFK. No, the military is not hiding aliens. Yes, the Constitution IS real and valid. AND SO ON! If you can't see how this is so identical to every other claim out there, I think you need to reassess your standing in reality. Quite honestly, if people would like to waste their time and breath on fanciful ideas, fine... But if they could please take themselves and go be a burden on society from, I don't know, Antarctica, it would be greatly appreciated.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by kork13

No, the military is not hiding aliens.

Now wait just a minute on this one. I saw the video of the dead alien autopsy with my own eyes. So I'm sure there are aliens.

[disgruntable]

I watched the video a while back. My take on it was that they may well correct that income taxes are illegal, but at this point it's too well established to overturn. The states are dependent on what the government provides, the government is dependent on the income, the officials who have the power to change it don't want to, and the people go about their daily lives and don't give a damn. Point being, even if they are right, it's not going to change, so just pay up.