what is your monthly income?

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

I once had a friend tell me that she HAS to work to cover daycare costs. Apparently, it just never occurred to her that if she stayed home she wouldn't need daycare.

Only thing I would point out is if two people get together and start to have a family many times both are moving forward with a career. Although my wife's job in radio is not one that will ever bring home the "big bucks" it is a labor of love. Not sure I was built to be a stay at home Dad, so I couldn't assume she was a stay at home mom.

When we first started Daycare, it was almost break even (a little in our favor) but my wife really didn't want to leave the job that brought her so much joy. To be honest, my job was just a job to "pay the bills", it just happened to pay more. After a couple of advancements, my wife clearly makes well over the "breakeven point" and still has the luxury of getting to our toddlers by naptime on many days.

Just a point that not everyone is a stay at home mom, as I envy the patience of my daycare provider many days. Its all about the right blend of choices that work best for your family.

Lonewolf

[DebbieL]

I think Syracusa should read "The Millionaire Next Door". She might be quite enlightened by what she would find out. Most of the flashy types she seems to admire don't have real wealth at all. Those she looks down on are more likely to be the millionaires next door. And yes, a lot of them drive older cars, even (gasp) pickup trucks.

[aida2003]

I think your financial wellness should be defined not by how much income you make, but how much you keep. But money is not a good means to find friends, IMO.

I remember when I came to the U.S. 10 years ago, I lived with a well-off American family, and beside babysitting, I used to go out, of course. Once I met a guy from my country in a club. Next day I mentioned him to the family. The first question was "What does he do?" I said "He's a painter". They were not impressed by saying "he doesn't make much." Huh?? What do I care?!! I was just happy to meet a new face who happened to be from my homeland.
So, then it was my first glimpse at the American culture that it seemed judgmental to me.
Unfortunately it has changed in my country since the system changed and now people get jealous if you tell how much you make and expect more presents or parties from you based on that money. If you save, then they think you're being very cheap. Oh, well, I just avoid conversations about money.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by DebbieL

I think Syracusa should read "The Millionaire Next Door". She might be quite enlightened by what she would find out. Most of the flashy types she seems to admire don't have real wealth at all. Those she looks down on are more likely to be the millionaires next door. And yes, a lot of them drive older cars, even (gasp) pickup trucks.

It is quite unfortunate when communication breaks down. If from my posts you understood that I admire "flashy types" it is clear that communication broke down. I myself drive an old car. I paid 5000 $ for it although I had MUCH MORE cash available to sink into a car if I wanted to. I didn't.
I would never care for anything "flashy" even if I were a millionaire. So for you to draw the conclusion that "I admire flashy types" is just plain...let's not use the word because now when I think of it, yeah...it sounds really ugly.

Or is it that people who read and can have a stimulating conversation about something other than ball games...are "flashy"? Or those who carry themselves gracefully?... If yes - then yes, I admire "flashy" types. Let's just make sure we agree on definitions.

Some here seemed to have switched to a seriously defensive mode due to my statement that I have noticed a tendency FOR ME to NOT be compatible with the type of people who drive pick-up trucks, have exclusively sports-oriented preoccupation, "will not read a book to save their lives" (to cite from a self-proclaimed "educated-type" forum member) and live on fast-food.

Other than the fact that no one can make you feel inferior without your approval....question:

Since when are ALL such people "wonderful, modest, responsible" folks by default that are always to be admired? Their pick-up trucks and gas-guzzling monster cars are often an insult to humanity and not at all inexpensive (certainly more flashy than my old car); their huge-screen TV-s the same... and I could go on and on. So please, spare me the "these are all wonderful, down-to-Earth, BBQ-enjoying, simple folks that you snob, wrongfully despise".

This has not been my life experience so how about having the same consideration for my experience as I have for the experience you've had with "snobs"? Each one of us clicks with different types of people and that's OK.

As far as the theory that "stereotypes based on lifestyle and consumer choices do not work"...this is another myth. If such stereotypes did not work at all, Marketing as a science would not exist. Market researchers make corporations ungodly amounts of money every year when they target specific demographics with specific offerings ...EXACTLY because such stereotypes WORK most of the time! Frankly, I would not expect to have a "major click" with either the pick-up truck driver prototype nor the shiny-new, latest-model BMW/Mercedes driver prototype. So much about "flashy.

Yes, there will be the rare neurosurgen driving a pick-up truck (not that I would automatically consider a neurosurgen an "educated type" by default; I've heard of plenty physicians who would "not read a book outside their field to save their lives" and whose only preoccupation outside of cutting people is again, sports; I certainly would not care to hang out with them...large income or not, simply because I would get bored to tears, no other condescending reason included). But in general, the "educated types" (the kind who are observant about the world around them, who read to SAVE their lives and who can hold an interesting conversation) do not drive pick-up trucks period. Some will, most do not. Ask Market researchers.

Honestly - yes, I have the right to make fine discriminations as to what kind of people I would like to spend the little leisure time I have with. As for another benevolent member's observation that "if I stopped judging, I might be able to make some friends here ...flash news: I DO have friends here - they are just not the type that live in the neighborhoods I visited.

My concern had to do with the neighborhood, the schools thay my children will be forced to go to, the immediate environment, etc. People judge and make discriminations all the time. They always have, they always will. It depends on what each is looking for.

As far as I am concerned, this futile discussion about "snobs" and "nice people" is over....especially when definitions and meanings are misplaced, abused and spinned off.

Again, best to everyone - pick-up truck drivers included.

PS: I read the "Millionaire Next Door". To save my life.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by aida2003

I think your financial wellness should be defined not by how much income you make, but how much you keep. But money is not a good means to find friends, IMO.

I remember when I came to the U.S. 10 years ago, I lived with a well-off American family, and beside babysitting, I used to go out, of course. Once I met a guy from my country in a club. Next day I mentioned him to the family. The first question was "What does he do?" I said "He's a painter". They were not impressed by saying "he doesn't make much." Huh?? What do I care?!! I was just happy to meet a new face who happened to be from my homeland.
So, then it was my first glimpse at the American culture that it seemed judgmental to me.
Unfortunately it has changed in my country since the system changed and now people get jealous if you tell how much you make and expect more presents or parties from you based on that money. If you save, then they think you're being very cheap. Oh, well, I just avoid conversations about money.

Well...welcome to the world where any observation that does not have built-in modern, mainstream American culture assumptions will be received with hostility and accusations of judgementalism, snobbery and the like (see above). You will notice the rule does not apply both ways; consequently, said family saw nothing "judgemental" in judging someone who makes little as being "not so good a catch".
I have noticed many Americans - not all, of course - are highly sensitive to the slightest implication that what their mainstream culture does or believes in may not necessarily be the cup of tea of people from other cultures (see the "pick-up truck hysteria"). But then again, the entire Plant is on its way "THERE" so it is no surprise that your co-nationals are becoming so sensitive about money issues. Soon your nice painter friend will be a "nobody" even in the eyes of your formerly non-materialistic co-nationals. Yes, it's a shame and like you said, you can't really win.

But yes, I have had very similar experiences with those described by people from other cultures, OP included.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Are you in market research Syracusa? How do you know that it's unlikely that millionaires would not drive pickup trucks? According to studies and books published they do. So where's your researchs? Your biases?

We know what you admire. People who are educated, cultured, and refined. You want people who read books and can discuss them. Educated people like you.

Why can people who like ball games be graceful? Why can't people who drink beer and drive a pickup truck be refined? And since when does it matter if you go to museums and symphonies to pretend to be "cultured?"

And since you've obviously never been invited to said people's houses you don't know they aren't wonderful, kind people. Probably because your poisonous tongue makes them avoid talking with you.

My sister is a dermotologist and she drives a 1990 station wagon bought used. My brother is a lawyer who rides a 1995 Jeep Cherokee. Gee whiz they must have inherited my family's normal frugality. And I know both adore baseball games. My brother loves fishing and scuba diving and bbq! My sister loves bbq too. Must be a family tradition! Are they unrefined and stupid? Guess so.

I think DebbieL was referring that you might have people like you on this message board if you were politer and more thoughtful. I don't like you. I don't think others necessarily agree with your point or else they would be agreeing with you. I don't think people necessarily like me, but I also did not write an inflammatory/ignorant post. Rather I wrote I think what most poeple on the board would say is their average experience.

They have friends at many different levels. Friends from childhood, teens, college, and working. Not all on the same refinment, education, and cultural level. However they are friends because we get along on some level. Maybe over a ball game and beer. Maybe over a book club. Maybe over a cooking class. Maybe from working out. Who knows?

Point is you rather harshly judge americans and our society as a whole, when the majority of the people here are rather polite, thoughtful, and very educated (both book and street smart).

But I give you a break, because manners are different where you are from. Obviously or why else would you write what you write?

[JanH]

This thread has taken off on a whole new direction. I wasn't sure I wanted to get involved. This conversation reminds me of when we moved to Texas. At the time, people were moving here from all states and all countries. And, their views of people here were based on Urban Cowboy and Dallas. I stayed out of it, but was totally amused overhearing Texans answer complaints from all kinds of people who were not from here. Every time someone would complain about the weather, the people, the culture, etc., Texans were just look at them and say, "Go Home." And leave it at that. People got quiet real quick after they were told that so many times. Texans don't really care if you don't like them based on judgements. They don't have any time for that. They are too busy helping each other and spending time with family. They are the most friend/family oriented people. And they don't care if you don't like them for who they are. They tell you to quit complaining, just leave. I tell you something...I'd rather live here during a disaster than anywhere. We had one law enforcement official tell FEMA that he was confiscating generators that had been sitting in a parking lot during a ton of red tape while they were needed to be used. He didn't mince words. The generators were expedited to use real quick after that. They get things done. They take care of people. They give and give.

I have a family member who is a PhD, held a chair at a University elsewhere, works in research, and loves sports. Of course they get given box seats in skyboxes and such instead of outside like us peons. We're working on him getting a pickup. LOL

I had an English friend who has since returned to Saudi Arabia. I realized that she and her husband did have a hard time with the culture here. But, she didn't shy away from joining in when she could. She also found an International Club for her other needs. We got along really well. I grew up around Air Force kids and research people from all over. Mom used to say that people thought she should be wearing overalls and chewing hay like on Hee Haw from where she grew up. But, both my parents are well rounded and very intelligent people. Just not what you would expect if you were to associate with just highly educated people. I believe everyone has the right to associate with who they want. I just get frustrated with people whose views can get a bit narrow. I have run into a bit of racism that perplexes me in an area where there is so much diversity. I believe in America. I have lived with people from everywhere. And from all walks of life. America is not perfect. But, it is a wonderful country full of wonderful people and cultures. If you don't like it, go elsewhere. We would love to have people stay and contribute to her greatness. And, what's beautiful about her is that you CAN say what you want. Just don't expect everyone to want to listen after awhile.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by LivingAlmostLarge

I don't like you. [ ... ]. I don't think people necessarily like me, but I also did not write an inflammatory/ignorant post.

Are you serious? Did you read your posts and have you listened to the TONE of your messages? While I have only made observations about generic situations/trends/prototypes (not specific persons) you keep throwing defensive tomatoes AT ME, personally. You throw AD HOMINEM attacks, one after the other, and you are as agressive as it gets simply because you do not like to hear a certain opinion, point of view or philosophy about something completely generic. It is not my fault that you identify so strongly with the type of people that I said I would not be compatible with.

And frankly, my dear, I do not give a DARN about the doctors, lawyers and other "heavy-weight" credentialed in your family. From your descriptions regarding their preoccupations and interests, I have a strong suspicion I would not care to spend a whole lot of time around them either, no matter what degrees, training and income they have (which by the way, does not equal "educated").

I do not think a dialogue is necessary to continue between us - so feel free to ignore my posts just like I have done with yours so far.

[jIM_Ohio]

LAL-

consider that one brit sees simon cowell on TV and probably thinks all brits need to brutally honest and express their opinions on everyone's appearence.

Not all americans watch American Idol, and not our entire country behaves that way.

I will be happy to let you know I drive a pickup truck, wear t-shirts and get dirty doing various chores which include painting my house, mowing my lawn and digging dirt to make soccer fields.

I also hang out with a fireman who is my best friend- he also drives a pickup truck- and drink beers by a bonfire at his house. He also comes over to my house to drink beer, help me put together baby furniture and paint my walls.

Both of us have gone to two plays together- downtown, all dressed up and in our sunday best. We have also ate at Jeff Rubies together (home of a $50 steak) with our wives (we drove there in a pickup truck) before one of the plays.

If anyone saw me at one location, they probably would conclude I would never do the other.

If you judge a person from afar, you will not know them because you will never get close.

Ever hear that distance is an ugly girls best friend? That means you would never get to know the inner person without putting appearences aside.

People make a difference. Not where they come from, not where they are going. It just matters where your head is at.

Can the two of you go to opposite corners so we can get back to talking about money?

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by jIM_Ohio

Can the two of you go to opposite corners so we can get back to talking about money?

I proposed this long time ago by strategically ignoring her posts.

Otherwise, your pick-up truck - in and of itself - would matter zilch to me once I got to know you (or X) and realized that you are much more than this label, which is usually indicative of people who I am not compatible with. I found this by having come in contact with enough "pick-up truck/beer/sports ONLY" types and having found that, while many of them were perfectly nice folks (what a shallow word, by the way), I simply did not have much in common with them and we just ended up boring each other to death, not necessarily wanting to connect again.

How harmless is this?

If, on the other hand, I was to find that your pick-up truck was just a label but you were very different from the other "pick-up truck" folks I met, then you would be my hero...and we would spend the night away talking over beer

Good enough?

[InDebtInDC]

Originally Posted by jIM_Ohio

I drive a pickup truck and so does my neighbor two houses down (but my truck is bigger than his truck).

This may be true, but the true question is: is yours bigger than mine?

Moral characters aside, I drive a pickup truck for the reasons that I would think any sane person would. While I do admit that trucks inherently use more fuel, trucks do have advantages:

* safety - bigger is always better in a collision. The only risk is rollover, but if you are a competent driver this risk can be mitigated.
* utility - I can haul/tow anything I need.
* space - enough space for 6 people and all of their work equipment.
* capability - I don't have to worry about getting stuck in bad weather or off-road somewhere.

I don't know what the poster is talking about regarding image and such. These are the reason I have a truck and I respect people who don't value these things. I gladly pay the premium to have safety above all else.

As far as education goes, I think I am just as educated as anybody else here. As far as profession goes, most here know I do legal work, specializing in intellectual property. What other field actually has the word "intellectual" in the title?


I learned a long time ago that a lot of people pre-judge, and you can't make everyone happy. I'll just leave it and that.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by InDebtInDC

This may be true, but the true question is: is yours bigger than mine?
Moral characters aside, I drive a pickup truck ....

On a lighter-hearted note now... is EVERYBODY driving pick-up trucks here?? Where are all the Sedan owners? Last time I checked, there were a few left in the street, no?...

Originally Posted by InDebtInDC

What other field actually has the word "intellectual" in the title?

Not many...but they have it in the content.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by syracusa

On a lighter-hearted note now... is EVERYBODY driving pick-up trucks here?? Where are all the Sedan owners? Last time I checked, there were a few left in the street, no?

I drive a 1998 Toyota Camry, but many times I've felt quite out of place in a parking lot trying to find my car hidden in a sea of monstrous SUVs. Go into a school parking lot (elementary especially) and you are likely to see nothing but SUVs and minivans at pick-up time.

Of course, we also own a 2000 Toyota Sienna minivan, so I'm half guilty.

As for pick-up trucks, I don't think I know anyone who drives one who doesn't work in a job where such a vehicle is necessary. I know plenty of people with pick-ups but they all do construction, electrical work, plumbing, painting, landscaping, etc. I can't think of anyone I know with an office job who drives a pick-up.

[Spud]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

I drive a 1998 Toyota Camry, but many times I've felt quite out of place in a parking lot trying to find my car hidden in a sea of monstrous SUVs. Go into a school parking lot (elementary especially) and you are likely to see nothing but SUVs and minivans at pick-up time.

Of course, we also own a 2000 Toyota Sienna minivan, so I'm half guilty.

Part of this is seat-belt laws; kids are in car seats now until they're 8. Try fitting 3 carseats in the back of your Camry. If we decide to have 3 kids, I'm afraid our next car is going to have to be some sort of a monstrosity as well.

[safari]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

I can't think of anyone I know with an office job who drives a pick-up.

Me neither actually, when I think about it. I know one guy who recently bought a Toyota Tundra, but he is a licensed contractor, so he needs it for work.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

I drive a 1998 Toyota Camry, but many times I've felt quite out of place in a parking lot trying to find my car hidden in a sea of monstrous SUVs. Go into a school parking lot (elementary especially) and you are likely to see nothing but SUVs and minivans at pick-up time.

Of course, we also own a 2000 Toyota Sienna minivan, so I'm half guilty.

As for pick-up trucks, I don't think I know anyone who drives one who doesn't work in a job where such a vehicle is necessary. I know plenty of people with pick-ups but they all do construction, electrical work, plumbing, painting, landscaping, etc. I can't think of anyone I know with an office job who drives a pick-up.

Mine is an old Toyota too. Finally...

I just wanted it to get me from A to B, to not consume a lot and to be what people call "reliable". I don't know anything else about cars, technically speaking. I let my husband pick. As for pick-ups, that's what I thought too. When work requires it, it would be a necessity, of course.

I just wonder whether this recession and the ever increasing oil prices will make the die-hard monster-car owners switch to smaller vehicles. To me, milage was one of the important criteria...

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by Spud

Part of this is seat-belt laws; kids are in car seats now until they're 8. Try fitting 3 carseats in the back of your Camry. If we decide to have 3 kids, I'm afraid our next car is going to have to be some sort of a monstrosity as well.

I fit two in ours.
My parents fit three in what the vast majority of Americans would consider an impossibly small vehicle. It is doable, just not within the American culture context and yes, not with the seatbelt laws...which is another thing I have major issues with and I find horrifically exaggerated. But a law's a law.

[JanH]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

As for pick-up trucks, I don't think I know anyone who drives one who doesn't work in a job where such a vehicle is necessary. I know plenty of people with pick-ups but they all do construction, electrical work, plumbing, painting, landscaping, etc. I can't think of anyone I know with an office job who drives a pick-up.

LOL. Hubby is one! Although from time to time he gets out in the plant and climbs machinery and towers and gets his hands dirty, he is mostly an office guy. Around here, you can't tell by what people drive. One of my doctors drives a mercedes and my hairdresser used to own a new BMW. I've been driving Hubby in his truck (which is nicer than my car) since his surgery because he can't drive himself and he can't get into and out of my car yet. I find it great to drive...I just hate the gas mileage and parking the thing. But, comfort-wise, it is preferable to my car. Go figure. We did without a truck for several years and missed one terribly. We haul so much around in that thing and have saved money with it and have moved two kids several times. I don't think we'll ever be without one again.

All our other vehicles are small cars.

[momof1in150]

My DH works with a bunch of professors at a Naval College and several drive pick-up trucks.

[simpleyme]

whats all this talk about trucks LOL
if you want people to think you are trash do what I do pull in on a Harley LOL