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Old 03-09-2008, 06:20 PM
cartmanfromsouthpark cartmanfromsouthpark is offline
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Default Savings account question.

Hey there. I'm new to this thing and have just one basic question I need to ask: How exactly does the APY rate work? I just enrolled with ING Direct Orange Savings account and just want to know how exactly my money will earn interest. I think I have an idea from what I've been reading but still remain unclear on how this process works.

If I deposit say $100 today March 9, 2008 and their APY rate is 3.40%, then if the money remains untouched for a year, will my original deposit have earned only 3.40 percent and I'll end up with a mere $103.40? I sure hope this isn't the amount my deposit earns after a year because it isn't much of an incentive to have a hundred bucks sitting around only to get back a mere 3 dollars and forty cents back. I'd rather just collect and recycle cans if that's what I'll earn after a year.
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Old 03-09-2008, 06:38 PM
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Yes, that's how interest works. An annual yield of 1% will earn you $1.00/$100 on deposit.

By putting your money in a savings or money market account like ING, you are accepting a low rate of return because there is virtually zero risk of losing your principal since the account is FDIC insured up to $100,000. You also get easy access to your money whenever you want it. If you want to shoot for a higher return, you need to be willing to accept more risk and, possibly, less liquidity. You can invest your money in the stock market which, over time, averages 10-12%/year (though it certainly isn't going that way this year so far). The risk, though, is that the value of your investment could go down and a year from now you could have less than you started with.

What you should do depends in part on what the money is for. If it is for a short-term need, like a house downpayment next year or a new car or a tuition payment, you can't take the principal risk that comes with the stock market. If, however, you are investing for the long-term, like retirement 20-30 years from now, you most likely can't reach your goals with a low yield savings account like ING. Your money simply wouldn't grow fast enough. When you factor in inflation, it may not grow at all.
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Old 03-09-2008, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cartmanfromsouthpark View Post
Hey there. I'm new to this thing and have just one basic question I need to ask: How exactly does the APY rate work? I just enrolled with ING Direct Orange Savings account and just want to know how exactly my money will earn interest. I think I have an idea from what I've been reading but still remain unclear on how this process works.

If I deposit say $100 today March 9, 2008 and their APY rate is 3.40%, then if the money remains untouched for a year, will my original deposit have earned only 3.40 percent and I'll end up with a mere $103.40? I sure hope this isn't the amount my deposit earns after a year because it isn't much of an incentive to have a hundred bucks sitting around only to get back a mere 3 dollars and forty cents back. I'd rather just collect and recycle cans if that's what I'll earn after a year.
don't forget the govenment get 1/3 too.
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Old 03-09-2008, 08:09 PM
cartmanfromsouthpark cartmanfromsouthpark is offline
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thanks guys. One more question: am i better off with a CD instead. a savings account now seems worthless. Im looking for something that will allow my money grow quickly or at least not so slowly. Thanks for the responses.
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Old 03-10-2008, 05:56 AM
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As I said above, it depends on what the money is for. You can probably get a slightly higher return with a CD but putting the money in a CD also means you can't easily access it until the CD matures. If this is money you might need to draw on from time to time, then a CD wouldn't work. If, however, you won't need this money for a set period of time, like 6 months or 1 year, then a CD would work.

What is the money for? And when do you anticipate needing it?
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Old 03-10-2008, 11:19 AM
lemmyk lemmyk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cartmanfromsouthpark View Post
thanks guys. One more question: am i better off with a CD instead. a savings account now seems worthless. Im looking for something that will allow my money grow quickly or at least not so slowly. Thanks for the responses.
CD's and high-yeilding savings are at about the same levels (true you could find a much longer term CD that may be 1-2 points higher).

Again with a CD you are locking your money into an account that you cannot touch (without penalities). High-yield savings are easy accessible (I have an account with HSBC that I love - and 3.55 interest isn't bad in this economy).

I understand that by throwing $100 and making a few ($3.45) bucks doesn't sound all that sexy, but it's certainly better than throwing it out on lottery tickets.

Unless you risk your money in a money-market, stocks or even a bond, you aren't going to see much higher rates than a high-yielding savings.

And with stocks/mm/bonds, you are either risking your money, or losing liquidity. True you can yield a much higher return, but you are also risking your cash. But look, even the best stocks or funds only average 8-10% in the long run. That's $8-10 on your $100 at the end of the year, minus brokerage fees, fund fees, etc...

With a savings/cd, there is no risk. Even if your bank goes under, your money is protected by the FDIC.

Hope this helps.

PS. If I were you I would open the online savings, throw in the hundred bucks AND collect cans to return and deposit that money into the savings!

Last edited by lemmyk : 03-10-2008 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 03-10-2008, 04:07 PM
humandraydel humandraydel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cartmanfromsouthpark View Post
If I deposit say $100 today March 9, 2008 and their APY rate is 3.40%, then if the money remains untouched for a year, will my original deposit have earned only 3.40 percent and I'll end up with a mere $103.40? I sure hope this isn't the amount my deposit earns after a year...
Don't forget - if you needed to BORROW that $100 from a credit card, you might have to PAY $15-20 per year. Part of the benefit of having cash in the bank is that you don't need to borrow it! And sooner or later you WILL need it - car repair, medical expenses, house repair, etc.
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Old 03-11-2008, 06:58 AM
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Doesn't the answer depend on the compounding timeframe. Daily vs. Monthly vs. Yearly
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
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Doesn't the answer depend on the compounding timeframe. Daily vs. Monthly vs. Yearly
That's true. It could be a few cents more or less depending on how it is compounded.
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disneysteve View Post
That's true. It could be a few cents more or less depending on how it is compounded.
I think APY takes into account compounding. For instance bankrate.com lists UFBdirect.com at 3.93% rate, compounded monthly, with APY of 4.0%. The way the compounding works, if you take 1/12 of the 3.93% each month, it ends up being 4.0% over the year. Mathematically it is ((1+.0393/12)^12)-1, which equals 4%. So the APY allows you to compare apples to apples regardless of compounding period.
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:04 AM
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You said that you wanted your money to grow quickly. To do that you would have to take some risk.

Having a savings account allows you to park your money and to allow it to earn some interest until you need it. Hopefully, you will not stop with $100. You will add more. Interest grows over time and before you know it you your interest starts earning interest. Our rates have recently fallen and so you're not going to make as much.

Wealth is grown slowly and you might want for your principal to be safe. I think that some of the online savings accounts are paying just under what CD's are paying. I wouldn't tie my money up in a CD for such a small amount.
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noppenbd View Post
I think APY takes into account compounding... So the APY allows you to compare apples to apples regardless of compounding period.
I believe that's true. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:49 AM
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APY does let you compare apples to apples, but only if the money is in your account at the beginning of the year. If you make deposits and withdrawals during the year, there could be a difference in the interest earned depending on interesting rate, interest earning schedule, and compounding schedule.
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Old 03-13-2008, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweeps View Post
APY does let you compare apples to apples, but only if the money is in your account at the beginning of the year. If you make deposits and withdrawals during the year, there could be a difference in the interest earned depending on interesting rate, interest earning schedule, and compounding schedule.
That's why I don't like APY as a measure... because it has to take into the account of the interest compounded so far. APR would be much simpler....
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Old 03-13-2008, 07:04 AM
InDebtInDC InDebtInDC is offline
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Annual Percentage Rate (APR) = Periodic rate X number of periods in a year

Typically the periods would be daily, weekly, 15 days, monthly, quarterly, 6 months, or annually depending upon the agreement you signed.

Annual Percentage Yield (APY) = (100%+Periodic rate)^number of periods in a year - 100%

You can do a mathematical proof if you want, but APY will always > APR due to inter-period compounding (exponent of # of periods).

For most loans, usually the APR will get converted to a daily periodic rate and that daily rate is then applied to the loan balance at the end of the day. As mentioned above, the APY depends on your balance, and may or may not be higher than the APR depending upon mid-year transfers.

When shopping for loans, banks will often quote you APR because this number is lower. When shopping for investments, they will quote you APY because this is higher.

I personally like to convert the APR to a daily periodic rate regardless of the compounding period because this gives you a more accurate estimate of the true cost of capital on your loans and the true rate of return on your investments.

I have almost never seen accounts that are compounded more frequently than daily.


Of course you can compare interest rates for 2 accounts with different compounding periods, but you have to normalize the interest rate for both to a common compounding period, and take into account how the bank calculates the average periodic balance.

It can get complicated quickly
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Old 03-13-2008, 01:49 PM
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I nominate you for best answer by far.
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Old 03-13-2008, 02:53 PM
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I also like the APR's better. I want to know what I'm going to make on a daily basis. and when it will be compounded. If they say 5.05 APR and 5.15. You may only get 5.10 in a 6month frame.
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:45 AM
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Yeah, just so it isn't lost in the shuffle, the basic difference is that APY takes into account of the interest compounded whereas APR does not. APY also typically assumes that the interest compounded will stay in your account for the entire year, whereas APR has no need for such assumptions.

Otherwise, we're essentially talking about the same thing, just calculated in two different ways.

That's also why APY is always greater than APR, and why some institutions such as banks like to use APY for their savings accounts, because it makes their rates seem higher when it's in fact still the same thing.

If you convert anything in APY back down to APR (and is compounded for the same time periods), then you can compare anything across the board.
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Old 03-14-2008, 07:09 AM
InDebtInDC InDebtInDC is offline
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Some additional information if you're interested: APR vs. APY: How the Distinction Affects You
Compound interest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As a quick primer, the whole idea is that a lender (could be a bank or an investor, which could be you) lets a borrower (could also be a bank, a business, or you) use a certain amount of money for a specific period of time. In return for being allowed to borrow money, the borrower pays the lender interest.

The interest rate charged for this period is called the "periodic rate". Typically it's somewhere between 5-30% for most normal consumer loans.

The period itself is determined by the loan agreement. Like said above, the period could be days, weeks, months, quarterly, 6months, annually, etc.

The only catch is a lot of financial institutions will use some obscure formula to calculate the balance for the period.

Suppose your period is 1 month, and you make 3 deposits during the month. Some bank may use the lower balance, which may be $0 if you didn't deposit anything for the first part of the month. Some will use an average daily balance where they take the outstanding balance for each day, sum up the daily balances, and take an average. Some may use a weighted formula.

Either way, the "periodic balance" X the "periodic rate" = interest earned for that period.


The idea of an APR (annual) is to normalize periodic rates for different periods so that you can compare the interest rate for different loans. For example, a monthly 1% rate = 12% APR. A quarterly 3% rate = 12% APR.

Both of these loans look the same, and in some cases, they could very well be.

For normal consumer loans, banks typically calculate a daily periodic rate and use that rate to calculate a daily interest and add that to the balance.

The idea of taking the daily rate X 365 = APR is because the daily rate is around 0.00001625% or something like that. Most consumers won't have any idea how to compare a number that small. When you're dealing with 5-30%, most people can comprehend this range of numbers much better.


The APY really only applies to investors. What happens at the end of a period is that the interest is added to the balance of the account, and the new balance is used to calculate interest for the next period.

The APY takes into account interest on the interest, i.e. compound interest.

For example, if your quarterly rate is 3%, and you deposited $100 at the beginning of the year and forget about it, you account would look like this (assuming no fees and no deposit/withdrawal):

End of quarter 1: $103
End of quarter 2: $106.09
End of quarter 3: $109.27
End of year: $112.55


As you can see, you got $12.55 in interest. That's a little more than 12% of $100 because you got interest on the interest of 1, 2, and 3rd quarters accuring for 3, 2, and 1 quarters, respectively.

The actual APY for this case is 12.55%, a little higher than the 3% quarterly rate X 4 quarter = 12% APR.


As disneysteve said above, since you are the lender, you can pull money out or put more money in whenever you want. Your actual APY is determined by how much money you have sitting in the account. The APR is just used to calculate the periodic rate to determine how much interest you earned for a period.

Take the 3% quarterly rate example above, say you put in $100 in the beginning at the year, but halfway through the year you withdraw $50. Your account looks like this:

End of quarter 1: $103
End of quarter 2: $106.09 - $50 withdrawal = $56.09
End of quarter 3: $57.77
End of year: $59.51

In this case, you only earned $9.51 in interest. You had $100 for 6 months, the you took out $50 and left the rest for the remaining 6 months.

In this case, your net gain in only $9.51. The APY is still 12.55% because APY is estimated from the periodic rate and the number of periods in a year.

Note that using APY to value an investment is a little deceptive because APY doesn't take into account the periodic balance. From the example above, you can see a drastic change in the returns if your balance changes ($12.55 dropped to $9.51 due to midyear withdrawal).


Like said above, I prefer to work off of a daily periodic rate since this is how most simple interest loans work. At the end of a day, whatever the outstanding balance is on the loan, minus any payment processed, multiplied by the daily periodic rate and added to the balance as the beginning balance for the next day. Repeat until the loan is paid off.

When dealing with an investment account, make sure you read all the fine print because each bank will try to use some obscure formula to get more money from you.
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Old 04-16-2008, 04:09 AM
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the bigger the growth the higher the risk. You will have to decide what sort of risk you are willing to take and also how fast you would want your money available. The savings account doesnt return much, but the cash will be available immediately
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