challenging question for help please

[FaintButPursuing]

Hi, I am new here and kinda scared. I have read the posting rules so if this is wrong, please, delete it. I will try to make this as short as possible.
My husband and I have distorted thinking about money. He thinks to spend it before it is taken away. I am afraid to save a cent in case I need it. Putting away a ten is literally too much for me and if he had a ten, it would be gone in as many minutes. We have nothing saved or put away. We live p2p and I am disabled. We have given up movies, treats, vacations, newspapers, subscriptions, desserts, clothes, shopping, going out. We use coupons and have a lot of prescriptions. We cook and eat at home. I handwash clothes and dishes (not together! ). We have about 13K in debt from medical expenses and own the car for him to go to work. My question is how do you overcome distorted thinking about money? We would really like to start over and do things better and from what I can see if we stopped the mismanagement we would have a little cushion. Happily we don't fight about this and sacrifice for each other, but we are very unhappy and anxious and want to stop living on the financial edge all the time. I have gone to many websites and the basic management tips are great, but assumes one can apply them. We have a very good doctor, but I would like some more practicalapplications than therapy for handling the money.
I apologize for the length of this and would welcome any suggestions or advice on starting over and doing it right. Thank you in advance for any advice or ideas.

[neatdesign]

Welcome to the site. This is absolutely the right place for you to post your questions. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that I hope that we can help you get things on track.

First let me summarize your post so I can make sure I've got everything right:

- You and your husband live on one (his) income
- You live paycheck to paycheck
- You are about 13k in debt
- You have no savings
- Your husband feels that if he doesn't spend money that comes in, it will be "taken away"
- You are afraid to save any money "in case you need it"
- You want to change your "distorted thinking" about money, but you don't want to address the psychological roots of this distorted thinking

Ok, now for some questions/comments:

1) Regarding your husband's money management, who does he think is going to "take" it if he doesn't spend it? Your creditors? Someone else?

2) I don't understand what you mean when you say, "I am afraid to save a cent in case I need it." This statement seems contradictory to me. If anything, needing money "just in case" is exactly why one SHOULD put money into savings -- so it's there if you need it. If it's not in savings, then that means it's been spent, which means you DON'T have it for "just in case." So I'm confused by this statement, because it doesn't make sense to me.

3) You said, "I have gone to many websites and the basic management tips are great, but assumes one can apply them." But you immediately followed that statement with, "We have a very good doctor, but I would like some more practical applications than therapy for handling the money."

You are very courageous to acknowledge that both you and your husband have distorted thinking about money. But unless and until you two can get a grip on your fears of saving money and using it wisely, no money management system is going to be of any use to you. That's sort of like someone who needs to lose weight signing up for Weight Watchers but still eating at McDonald's every day. It just ain't gonna work. There is a REASON that you and your husband have these fears, and I honestly believe you have to tackle those fears in order to really be successful at changing your ways.

At the same time, though, I agree that you need a practical, preferably hand-on system to get your finances under control. Personal finance books are great for motivation but they often seem to lack the practicality that you are looking for.

Just recently I starting using the YNAB Pro system, which was created by a fellow SavingAdvice member, Jesse. I recommend this program and think you might like it. Like you, my husband and I live paycheck to paycheck and want to get ahead financially. Jesse's system is a good one for people who have never really had a budget and don't know how to get one started. It's also specifically geared towards people who want to stop living paycheck to paycheck. Jesse provides a lot of motivation and "you-can-do-it" attitude in the YNAB Pro guide (which carries over big-time to the YNAB forums), but because it's a simple, hands-on system you can actually SEE the benefits as you implement and continue with the program. For the first time in a very, very long time, I feel like I finally have some control over my finances -- not the other way around. I know I sound like an infomercial right now but it is 100% true.

You can even get a free trial of YNAB Pro to try it out and see if you like it; it's downloadable so you don't have to wait for it to arrive in the mail, you can start using it right away. Best of all, Jesse and the YNAB forums are very supportive and good with answering any questions that you might have (I speak from experience here!).

I look forward to reading your follow-up post, I'd really like to help you if I can.

~ Jenney

[rebeccae55]

I'm not sure what your religious beliefs are, but when I was feeling desperate about money, I looked up every passage in the Bible regarding money, property, wealth, possessions, poverty, fear, worry, and anxiety. I studied them, trying to discern God's plan for my life, particularly as it pertained to our financial situation. After a period of time, I began to change the way I felt about money and consequently, the way I handled it.

I also read a lot about personal finance. Some authors address how our emotions can sabotage our best efforts. One book that was particularly helpful to me was "Life Makeovers: 52 Practical and Inspiring Ways to Improve Your Life One Week at a Time" by Cheryl Richardson. Not only does the author address financial issues, she helped me become more disciplined and goal oriented in every area of my life. In other words, it's all about balance. I wrote in a journal and developed written goals. I always try to "take the next best step" towards our goals. I still do those things.

Hope you won't mind some unsolicited advice. Words are very powerful! I have a concern that even if you happen to be feeling happy, every time you type or see your user name "Desperately Sad", you'll start to feel sad again. I encourage you choose a name that describes what you WANT to be, or a neutral name, or your own name.

Sounds like you have a lot going on and it's obviously not all financial. Just keep taking the next best step! The Cheryl Richardson book is probably at your nearest public library.

Many blessings,
Rebecca

[disneysteve]

I think neatdesign has given you great advice. You really do need to explore the source of both of your feelings about money. It seems that both of you are afraid of saving money for some reason. Did either of you have some loss in the past that led you to feel this way? Was money stolen from you?

I think another important thing is for you to agree on some financial goals and work together to reach them. You might start with something as simple as "we want to save up $500 for an emergency fund".

[mbhunter]

Forums like these are great. Thank you for taking the time to ask your questions. The forums attract people looking for answers as much as they attract people who are willing to offer their advice. You've already gotten some good advice.

I echo the sentiments that I don't understand why "You're afraid to save money in case you need it." What I've thought is you do save money in case you need it (and you will need it at some point). About the only example to the contrary I've known is that an acquaintance of a friend (how's that for close?) saved up money from his own job to get his teeth fixed, only to have his mother take it away because she didn't want him to have the work done, and since she was joint on the account he had no recourse. This is a highly unusual situation. Is yours highly unusual?

Not knowing much else about how you (as a couple) think about money, I'd develop a plan to reduce your expenses so that you can pay off that debt. Along the way, it's wise to set aside money for an emergency fund.

If this is already clear. and you still have issues with whether this is right or not (as you mentioned in your original post) then these underlying issues need to be addressed or all of the advice you're getting here, and perhaps other places, will go in one ear and out the other. If you're willing to share these underlying issues with us, then that's great. We'll be happy to set you straight. Otherwise, please talk to someone you trust to resolve them.

[Diolla]

I agree with the pp in that you do need to get to the root fo the psycological problems but on a more practical vein...

I used to have a husband like yours and the only way I could save money was to make it invisible to him. If it is a joint problem you may have to get more dramatic. Is there another person around you that you trust?

Until you get yourselves under control you might try opening a joint savings with someone you trust, auto deposit a small amount into it each paycheck (best would be a direct deposit), and make the account unavailable unless a withdrawl is signed by both parties. If an emergency occurs that you must have it then you go to the trusted person and if they agree you go and get the money, elsewise it is saved.

Now that I am divorced I have this sort of setup for my son in case something happens to me. His father cannot get my son's funds unless approved by someone else.

I hope the doctor can help you get to the bottom of your fears but until then this might be a way to get some put aside in a rainy day fund.

Best of Luck

[FaintButPursuing]

How kind you all are to post to me like this! I was apprehensive that I would get "find a doctor" or some slap like that. Let me try to answer your questions.

You want to change your "distorted thinking" about money, but you don't want to address the psychological roots of this distorted thinking

Jenney, we are in therapy but I didn't want to burden the community with matters beyond the purpose of the board; it certainly wouldn't be right to post "hey, I'm sick, can you fix this?" :> . So please understand I didn't want to have you think I was posting for therapy. Don't mind addressing the psychological roots at all.

1) Regarding your husband's money management, who does he think is going to "take" it if he doesn't spend it? Your creditors? Someone else? 2) I don't understand what you mean when you say, "I am afraid to save a cent in case I need it." This statement seems contradictory to me. If anything, needing money "just in case" is exactly why one SHOULD put money into savings -- so it's there if you need it. If it's not in savings, then that means it's been spent, which means you DON'T have it for "just in case." So I'm confused by this statement, because it doesn't make sense to me.

He lived in a childhood abuse situation where everything was taken from him so he had to use any money before he even got home, for gas, food, bills, etc., before it was taken away by his family.
I am terrified to have the money physically away from me; in an account, with him, anywhere. So I have it with me and never do anything with it; spend it, save, invest, cushion, nothing. You're right, it is completely contradictory. I understand logically that it should be in savings so it's there if I need it, but I can't bear it being away from my hands. I feel if it's in a savings account I can't get to it, even though the bank is five minutes away. It threatens me. See answer below to Disneysteve.

About the only example to the contrary I've known is that an acquaintance of a friend (how's that for close?) saved up money from his own job to get his teeth fixed, only to have his mother take it away because she didn't want him to have the work done, and since she was joint on the account he had no recourse. This is a highly unusual situation. Is yours highly unusual?

Mbhunter, yes it was unusual in the sense that parental physical/emotional abuse was an everyday thing. He had to buy himself bandages and first-aid materials because of the beatings and broken noses he had. Imagine standing by yourself in a drugstore looking for something to take home and keep hidden in your pocket to mop up your own blood, because you are not allowed to get up and get a towel. He saved money for a car to get a job; they took it. He saved money to move out, they took it. They sold the car. They cancelled his college tuition. He bought all the headache medicine he could find to take before he went home since he wasn't allowed to take anything for pain after the beatings. Not to mention that he was then sent to clean the garage or the cars or make the dinner. And if a drop of blood fell on the floor, the beatings would start all over again for that.

Is there another person around you that you trust?

Diolla, there is no one else. We are completely alone.

It seems that both of you are afraid of saving money for some reason.

Disneysteve, we are. Mine does not involve physical abuse but emotional, and I had a terrible accident and I was left alone with no resources; no medical help, no human contact. I was actually hungry and sick, and became afraid to do anything because the consequences were appalling. Now I can't bear even ten dollars being out of my hands, hence no savings, etc.

Rebeccae, I thank God everyday for what we do have. I will think about your kind words about the username.

So actually we are opposites with good intentions. We've tried splitting the money, having only one of us do it, pooling it, nothing seems to override the distorted thoughts. Believe it or not, we sit at the kitchen table with calculators and calendars and the money and actually laugh until we cry because it's such a nightmare. Or maybe it's the other way around...our joke is that I can be trusted with a thousand dollars in my purse for a year or two and only spend ten cents of it, and if he goes in the shower with five dollars he will come out with change. I guess you have to laugh, huh?

To all: We met in school and fell in love, he had to leave, I stayed, and six years of hell later (which the other didn't know about) rescued each other from these two situations and have been together and happily married ever since. I am so grateful that this is all we have to struggle with; no gambling, no drinking, no fighting about it, no deceiving each other about funds, no extra issues beyond the results of the abuse. Let me thank you all again most gratefully for your kind words and encouragement. I'm starting to feel a little hope!

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

I really don't see anything wrong with saving cash right in your hands/pocket/purse/home. We even have a thread somewhere on this forum about where to hide cash at home. It was a good thread,--funny, informative and creative. You might enjoy it. I think saving money is important enough that you should do it even if you use the ol' time honored stick it in the mattress method.

So if your husband does at least trust you and in theory understands the importance of having some back-up money, then why not save at home? No, you won't earn any interest or dividends, but still it would be money saved for the future. I'm sure I don't need to tell you how we need to prepare for the future by saving now. Job loss, unexpected need, old age--all things that must be considered.

Do you two not use a bank or credit union at all? I do know a couple of people who operate on cash only, but at least they have accounts through which to cash their paychecks checks. One of them used to only use check-cashing "stores." Cash only is doable, but even on a cash-only basis, it is possible to put away cash. There are people who even manage to buy houses using saved up cash. I suppose a lease-to-buy arrangement makes something like that more likely, but still, there are those rare folks who can save enough paper bills in the fireproof lock box at home to buy a house.

If your husband agrees, why not build your own little super-fortified method of putting away cash dollars somewhere exceptionally safe in your home. Your own home Fort Knox, so to speak. He can check it every morning and every night to assure himself that it is going nowhere, that no one is taking it. You can have that same security that it is there with you, not being spent in a frenzy, and not unreachable in some uncaring bank.

[PrincessPerky]

I think it is amazing that you are willing to come online and seek out help, and I think that you have bigger issues than money (odd to say that on a financial forum) go ahead and save your money in the mattress, not a problem....it sounds like the best solution for you, and if your husband trusts you to do it, great! if not, umm some lack of informing in a marriage is ok for a time, he will come around.

As to the paycheck to paycheck...is your debt growing or shrinking? are you able to pay the bills each month? I mean well, just because you don't have a big 'portfolio' doesn't mean you aren't doing ok...you gotta start somewhere. and paying the bills each month on time is a great place to start. None of your troubles implied a problem paying the rent? or the electric bill? So your main concern is that you aren't doing it 'by the book' and that you and your husband are not on the same page...neither the book nor the same page are as important as your health.

In short, pay the bills, continue the therapy, and stash your emergency fund in a nice home safe (cereal box in the freezer or some such)...eventually you will be able to build on that for more security.

[neatdesign]

Thank you so very much for posting back. Like the others I have to say that I am very impressed with your courageous attitude. Asking for help is never easy, so I'm so glad that you feel comfortable enough to share your experiences with us. We genuinely want to help and having the extra bit of background information really helps.

The others have already touched on some of the things I was going to say, but I do have a few other comments/insights:

First, thanks for clarifying your comment about not saving money so you'll have it in case you need it. In other words, literally having money within arm's reach is sort of like a security blanket to you. It allows you to have a sense of control over something in your life -- and based on your description of your experiences, that's obviously something precious to you, and with good reason. Believe it or not, there are probably more people out there who can identify with this than you might think.

In your case, your stumbling block is believing that unless you have money literally in your hands (or under your mattress, or in a shoebox -- take your pick!), you won't have access to it at all. I know that you intellectually understand that this is not the case, because if it were then no one would ever want to put money in the bank. But understanding that intellectually and accepting it emotionally are two very different things.

You really need to take baby steps to get over this. Here's what I suggest:

Start by opening a checking account at your local bank or credit union. It doesn't matter what bank or if you're earning interest or whatever. There are only two important things to consider: 1) Make sure that there are no fees and no minimum balance required; and 2) Make sure the account comes with a free debit card.

Once you've found the right bank, just open the account and put $5 in it. That's it. Five dollars. After that, you have just one task: Keep that $5 in that account. This is a very small amount of money that won't impact your ability to pay bills or buy necessities -- in other words, it's MANAGEABLE.

The longer you're able to keep that $5 in that account, the more confident you'll be in keeping a bank account. And the more confident you become, the more in control you'll feel. Because instead of having your fear cause you to clench onto that $5 bill, you will be able to relax knowing that that $5 is safe and sound. As your confidence grows, you might be willing to add another $5 to your bank account, or even $10 or $20. It will just be there, waiting for you.

You know our parents and teachers always said it when we were growing up, but it's the absolute truth: You get over your fears by facing them. That's why I jumped out of an airplane at 14,000ft and did three bungy jumps (the tallest being 400ft high) to get over my fear of heights. For someone who has always been absolutely petrified of heights, those were simultaneously the scariest and most freeing actions I have ever taken in my life. I not only don't regret doing them, I'm actually proud of myself for having the courage to try. That's how I want you to feel about having a bank account. All you need to do is take that baby step and try. You'll really feel so proud of yourself for just getting that far.

Now... Your husband. His fears are totally different from yours. They are also well-founded, based on his life experiences. Do you mind if I ask how old you both are, and how long he has been living on his own? He obviously trusts you but if he hasn't been separated from his abusers for that long, it could take a long time for him to overcome his fears regarding money.

As someone who has suffered from depression and anxiety for most of my life, I know that it's not a "just-snap-out-of-it" thing. A person can know that their behavior makes no logical sense, but that doesn't mean you can just change it like you switch off a lightbulb. It doesn't work that way.

I'm glad to hear you're both in therapy, and I hope you're making progress. It can be a slow process, but well worth it. I can only suggest that you continue therapy as long as you can afford to do so, and that you just keep reminding your husband that the only other person who has access to his money is you -- his wife, his trusted best friend. I'm sure that he knows that, but it will just take him time to be comfortable with that. It sounds like you have a lovely marriage and great relationship, so you should both feel very proud of that -- and encouraged by it!

Lastly, I can't remember who said it now but I agree that you should ask Jeffrey to allow you to change your username. You may be desperately sad now, but even after a day you've mentioned that you are feeling more hopeful -- so choose a name that will reflect that! Maybe we could have a contest to come up with a really great username for you! LOL

~ Jenney

[Exile]

Desparately Sad, I can understand why you sign that way. Sounds as though you both need counseling, marital and personal.

D.S., is the nature of your disability such that you cannot work outside the home? You mention that you hand wash both clothes and dishes, which takes more strength than I have, and I'm in fairly good health. If you're truly housebound, maybe there's some kind of work (i.e. the paying kind) that you can do from home.

Above all, you and hubby need to get on the same page regarding your finances.

[Kate Ann]

Wow, I can totally relate to your husband in this situation. I grew up super poor, and in a super abusive home. I had to ask to eat (the answer was always no), ask to sleep, bathe, basically anything. If I showed interest in wearing any particular clothing, it was taken away, if I liked one of our animals more than another, it was sold, if I liked that my hair or nails were getting longer, they got cut...and on and on. At one point, my father bought hand lotion for me because my hands were so chapped from all the house work and dishes and laundry that my hands bled a LOT, and my mother took that too.
So, how to progress from that fear of having absolutely nothing? Mostly, it's a mindset to realize who is currently in control. I'm an adult now. I scraped by to get myself through college (though not without incurring a rather large student loan debt for graduate school) and finally I got my Master's Degree. I'm the one who runs my life. It's a great realization. Once the hubby realizes his parents aren't there to take his accomplishments (whether financial, educational, emotional) away from him, he'll start to feel more confident.
I can't say that I don't blow money from time to time on things I want. I do indulge in splurges, but I try to budget according to what I can afford at the time. It used to be that getting fries and a cheeseburger was a splurge in my college days, but now I'm more inclined to well priced stuff on ebay.

Maybe if you guys can reinforce for yourselves that you are actually running the show, it'll help remove some of the fear. Acknowledge the fear, validate where it comes from, and give yourself permission to try something new.

Best wishes.

[FaintButPursuing]

Hi, everyone, thanks again for your nice messages. I hope I can answer some questions.

Princess and Joan, I like the idea of the freezer/safe, and am looking around the house to see what else I can utilize. We were doing okay just getting the bills paid until last month, when I broke my ankle, but not making any headway on the debt. However, it is not growing either.

Kate Ann, good for you that you got out and did so well! I am so sorry that you ever had to live like that. I wish I could send you a steak and a bottle of the best hand lotion!
Exile, no, I can't work either in or out of the house, we've looked into that. Actually, I wash and he wrings.

Neatdesign, we just had our thirteenth wedding anniversary and he was out of his house two months before he moved me in. He came and looked at my situation in silence for a moment, and then said, "Pack what you want and leave everything else", and I was gone that night.

I know it seems like thirteen years is a long time but sometimes to him it feels like thirteen minutes. I teared up when I read the second to last paragraph of your post, as did he. It sent him off to work feeling really good. I'm thinking about those baby steps and I do have a totally empty and dusty savings account. I'm going to keep thinking about that 5 and imagining it tucked away. Maybe if it's just 5, as you said, and I don't feel like it's more than that, I can handle the terror. I will let you know. Thank you again for your kind posts and to everyone for the encouragement and help.

p.s. He suggested "Oyahapennyoot" and I suggested "WillTakeVails". :> Not sure these are going to work...

[minnie1928]

First off, you have had some REALLY great advice already! I just had a thought that might help you emotionally with the saving money idea. Obviously you don't want a stack of twenties laying on the coffee table, so hiding that kind of cash is very sensible. But, what if you started a savings jar for coins? Make it a clear one so that you can physically see it growing. I remember reading about this somewhere to reinforce the savings habit by making it a visual thing.

I wish you both the best of luck!

[FaintButPursuing]

Hi, everyone! I just wanted to update you all. I read all the posts and a lot on the website. So far I've done this:

put $1.00 away in my wallet. Sorry, neatdesign, I couldn't handle the $5.00, but I see the dollar every day and it's really helping. I think about the fears when I see it and it's representing a change for me. Maybe $5.00 next week!

Started dropping change in a (don't laugh...ok, laugh) Tootsie Roll bank. Have even wrestled a quarter away from the cat, who likes to push them off surfaces and chase them. She's still sulking.

Saved $38.00 in coupons and sale items at the grocery store. I wasn't able to put that away but I did save the cost of it.

Went over all the money and bills with my husband (twice!) and figured out what was coming in and who we could pay this month. It's a big relief to have dates and amounts set.

I'm going to follow your advice and change my user name if they allow me. Hopefully you'll see me soon as FaintButPursuing. Thank you all again for your advice and assistance. You're a great bunch!

[PrincessPerky]

That sounds like a wonderful start! I am so glad to hear back from you and I am sure Jeffrey or Nate will be able to change your name if you can't yourself.

[Ima saver]

How about reading a book called debt proof living by Mary Hunt. You can get it at the library.

[Saving in So Cal]

Here are some ideas for what they're worth:

Give yourselves a weekly allowance for 'incidentals." It does not need to be much, just enough to let each of you do a little free spending (or free saving) without guilt. Your husband might not be ready to take on a whole week's worth of money at once, so pick an amount that you can dole out on a daily basis. Then, instead of giving it to him in the morning when he leaves, give it to him in the evening when he comes home. That will serve two purposes. First, it counters the message he learned as child. Second, since the earliest he can spend the money is when he leaves the house the next morning, he'll get use to having money in pocket for a bit.

For you, take your allowance and put it whereever you think it will be safe. When it reaches an amount that is twice what you need to buy a savings bond, then take half and buy a savings bond ($25 or $50). Put the savings bond (or bond paperwork) in your safe place. Repeat the cycle. Savings bonds can be cashed in easily (there are interest penalties if you cash it in early, but your principal will always be safe, which is what is important to you). With this approach, you will have some ready cash and you will also have interest-bearing bonds that are secure and reasonably liquid.

Put together an emergency bag for each of you -- what you would need if you had to leave your home on 5 minutes notice. Put in copies of your important papers, a picture of each other, a change of clothes, water, food, prescriptions, and a little cash (start with $1.00 and add to it). Your local emergency preparedness office will have suggestions of what should be in the bag. This obviously will not get you ahead financially, but it will add to your fragile sense of personal security and, based on your posts, that seems to be the underlying issue.

Along similar lines, have a trust created and durable powers of attorney for health care drawn up. If your husband has an Employee Assistance Plan at work, the plan may include this service or provide a low-cost referral. Alternatively, since you are disabled, your local Legal Aid office or a nearby law school may have offer this service for you or know where you can procure it a low-cost. There are software programs you can buy, but I wouldn't recommend them for you at this point because, even though I am an attorney, I have found them to be pretty daunting in some respects and you need peace of mind, not stress and aggravation. If you are not able to find a free or low-cost alternative, I still recommend you spend the money to have this done. The psychological benefits of knowing that your affairs are in order are enormous.

Your story and your quest have touched me. A big part of my workload involves criminal cases. Through this work, I have encountered people with backgrounds similar to, but certainly no worse than yours and your husband. Instead of doing what they could to become productive citizens, they gave up and committed horrible crimes. Most will never have another opportunity to live free and contribute to society. While you may think that you have a long way to go, you are actually extraordinarily far ahead.