Tithing while in debt

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by Aleta

Steve, I didn't know that. I always thought that Jewish people tithed. Didn't Abraham give a tenth?

I actually asked one of our rabbis about tithing tonight after services. He said that it is taught as a biblical concept but really not as a modern practice. Of course, he said, it would be great if everyone did it, and many ultra-Orthodox Jews do, but by and large it isn't a common practice among modern Jews.

[Quynne]

This is one hot topic and one I tried to stay out of. lol. This may sound strange but I don't believe this is a financial issue. I believe it is a heart issue. For those who are Christian, we are under the age of grace not law. Does that absolve you from giving a tenth? Some say it does and others disagree. What it does mean is that our heart attitude is what is important. This is a spiritual question not a money question. The bible also says that God loves a cheerful giver. So, if you are grudgingly giving your tenth every week don't expect it to bless you. You need to examine your heart. You need to pray and read the Word to find your answer. There are too many opinions and you will always find someone who agrees or disagrees with you. This is a decision based on you and God. Trust in that and your answer will come.

Also we need to beware of prosperity theology. Just because you give $20 at church don't expect to find $140 on your car window. (sevenfold..lol) You don't give to get. You cannot out give God. That is all nonsense and not biblical. You maybe blessed. For instance, a bill maybe less than you expected. Your tires last longer than they should. Your roof doesn't leak. Someone gives you exactly what you needed.

As far as the church getting the money....churches depend on volunteers and cheerful givers. Without that there would be no Sunday school teachers, no ministries, no food baskets, no AWANA, no Christmas play and most of all no preacher. It is our responsibility to give to our church so the business of spreading the gospel can happen. Think of it this way...if you went to the Y, and used all of its resources and paid $100 a month, how would you feel if you found out that over half the people there just decided not to pay and were let in anyway? Churches do not kick out those who do not tithe. However, churches provide the same service, same ministries, same food baskets, same children's ministires to everyone. A preacher can't preach unless he is paid. Are there some who get paid too much? Yes. That is a separate issue. You are only responsible for you. If your church is mishandling funds...find another church.

My family is Christian. My house is a tithing house. Yes, we are in a great deal of debt. However, God did not cause our debt. Our debt is outside His will for our lives. So, that does not negate our biblical responsibility. What it does mean is that we need to work hard...extra hard...to clean that mess up. It is bad testimony for a Christian to be in more debt than he can handle. Which is why I wasn't even going to respond to this. lol. However, my house will take steps to not rob God or anyone else even if it is hard or inconveinent. Thanks in part to the wonderful people here who have helped give me a better attitude.

Basically, what I am saying is that one need not debate this issue. It is a spiritual, personal issue. Go to God and trust Him.

I totally understand the perspectives of those who are not Christian and do not believe in tithing. It does sound crazy. Oh...and to those who said they would be mad if someone owed them money while giving to the church. I can understand that. It is a bad testimony to owe money. I can understand the frustration from the one who generously gave the money in the first place. However, being on the flip side of that...I was owed money by a Christian. I would rather they tithe than pay me back. However, their tithing responsiblity is their problem and does not negate them paying me back. But...if I knew that they would have to pay me out of their tithe...I would rather they tithe. That is just me. Don't all go asking me for money...LOL...none to give. LOL.

[b4freedom]

What do you pay tithing on: net income or gross income?

If you own a small business that generates $100,000 in revenue. You have to decide what your salary from that revenue should be. Anything you don't give yourself in salary would be turned back into the business to help it grow in order to become more profitable. Let's assume that you paid yourself $60,000 in salary and $40,000 went back into building the business. Do you pay 10% of the $60k? What if you switched it and only gave yourself $40k? Do you still only pay 10% of the $40k? That's a $2k difference in tithing. What one is the correct thing to do?

On one hand, you'd have more salary up front. On the other hand you're investing in your business which will hopefully give you more salary on the back end which would mean more tithing to pay later on.

For those of you who pay tithing, do you feel guilty for not paying a certain percentage?

When you go before your Maker, how do you think it'll go when tithing comes up? Do you think you've covered your bases or will you come up short?

See an older thread: Why you shouldn’t give to charities… …until you retire or die.

[carsensejoe]

Originally Posted by poundwise

I'm not sure what GOD thinks about giving that is done only when it is easy or convenient.

it definitly means more when its harder to do

[Aleta]

I heard a saying from a minister that made alot of sense. He said that when you are giving let's say outside of your tithing that if it doesn't move you by what you gave then it won't move God. I think alot is conscience. Some people give above tithing. They'll give an extra offering and it usually is because of something that they are going through and they will give out of their need. I've heard some pretty remarkable stories about that. But let's face it when you're down that far financially, it really doesn't matter anyway. You have no where except up to go. So alot has to do with your conscience and what you understand to be truth.

[Quynne]

Originally Posted by b4freedom

What do you pay tithing on: net income or gross income?

If you own a small business that generates $100,000 in revenue. You have to decide what your salary from that revenue should be. Anything you don't give yourself in salary would be turned back into the business to help it grow in order to become more profitable. Let's assume that you paid yourself $60,000 in salary and $40,000 went back into building the business. Do you pay 10% of the $60k? What if you switched it and only gave yourself $40k? Do you still only pay 10% of the $40k? That's a $2k difference in tithing. What one is the correct thing to do?

On one hand, you'd have more salary up front. On the other hand you're investing in your business which will hopefully give you more salary on the back end which would mean more tithing to pay later on.

For those of you who pay tithing, do you feel guilty for not paying a certain percentage?

When you go before your Maker, how do you think it'll go when tithing comes up? Do you think you've covered your bases or will you come up short?

See an older thread: Why you shouldn’t give to charities… …until you retire or die.

We tithe on our gross income. I don't have a small business. I did have a home daycare....which isn't really a small business...but I did put money back into it...for food, toys, etc. I still tithed off the gross of total earnings. I never really thought much about it...since I wasn't paying anyone else so I could take 10% right off the top. Now, if I had an established small brick and mortar small business...I would tithe off the income I pay myself. I know a few people who own their own businesses at church and from my understanding that is how they do it.

Basically, this is a spiritual issue. You cannot outgive God. If you are trying to get away with tithing less than your heart is not right. You should be trying to think of MORE ways to give. Afterall, it all rests with God anyway. If that is not your belief, than it would be hard to explain this or for you to understand it.

[momof1in150]

Of course my first post has to be about tithing - such a hot topic that one should stay far from but it is close to my heart. I work as our church admin asst. and we are currently $6000 behind in pledges. Our church relies on the pledges to run the church, this includes everything from salary to electricity to paper to coffee cups, without pledge income we would have to close our doors.

Tithing and pledging are two different things. If during your church's annual campaign you pledge to pay a certain amount to the church you need to honor that commitment. Tithing is 10% and not everyone can tithe. If you can't meet your pledge commitment talk to the pastor or Finance secretary so that they can adjust the budget.

Just as you make a commitment to pay credit cards, mortgages and car payments by making a pledge to the church you are making the same commitment.

So, to answer the OP, YES, you should honor your commitments to your church when you are in debt.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Actually I'm the OP and I specifically said when you are BEHIND paying your debts. Meaning late on rent, late on mortgage, behind on bills. I wrote in the OP that itw oudl be acceptable to tithe monthly when all bills are caught up, but what about when you are behind payments?

I can UNDERSTAND tithing when in debt, no problem there, line item like retirement. BUT what about when you are not current with bills?

Somehow I just don't get how people who tithe can't take the time to read specific question. They just look at two words, debt and tithe and don't bother to read the post.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by momof1in150

I work as our church admin asst. and we are currently $6000 behind in pledges. Our church relies on the pledges to run the church, this includes everything from salary to electricity to paper to coffee cups, without pledge income we would have to close our doors.

How does your church do its budgeting? Do you plan your spending based on pledges? Where do tithes fit in? As new members join the church, do you get income info from them and find out whether or not they intend to tithe 10%. And does your church receive funding from outside of your congregation, like from a central church group of some sort?

I've often wondered about these things. As I mentioned earlier, I'm Jewish and synagogues work differently than churches. Members pay dues to join the congregation, so we know how much income we can anticipate each year (assuming everyone stays current with their bills). We have various fundraising events throughout the year and have to estimate the income from those, but the bulk of the money comes from dues and is pretty predictable.

[momof1in150]

Steve,

Here is how the United Methodist Church typically works:

Each October we have a Stewardship Campaign and we try to get everyone to fill out a Pledge Card for a commitment for the following year. We finish this campaign in early December and then give the information to our Finance Committee. They request budget info from all other committees. Some of these include Education, Membership, Trustees, Worship, Missions, PR, Staff Parish Relations, etc.

In January the Administrative Council meets (committee chairs) and hashes out the budget. Our entire budget for the church is based on pledges from members. We have a line for church usage (a preschool rents our Fellowship Hall during the week) and loose plate change (the money that is just placed in the offering plate). Most of the time committees take budget cuts because many items are fixed - heat, salary, insurance, mission shares.

We don't get any outside help from our Conference. We have to pay Mission Shares to our Conference each Quarter and those come first above anything else. Our mantra - pay Missions before anything else.

We do have a place to indicate if you are tithing. Some people do but a majority don't tithe.

We are a small church with a membership of less then 300 but we have 80 children registered and attending Sunday School and we paid over out $90,000 in Mission programs last year (financial and other donations). We have a sister church in New Orleans that we financially support to help them get on their feet after Katrina. We support local to global Mission Programs. That is why staying current on your pledges is critical to churches.

[fairy74]

I think momof1in150 makes a good point about the distinction between a tithe and a pledge, however not all Christian denominations have a pledge (I'm Catholic and had never heard of a pledge before reading that post). I also agree with the OP tithing is fine if you are current on your bills, not ok if you're not....just my two cents.

[fairy74]

I did have a question about pledging (for anyone who's church does this) is everyone encouraged to pledge regardless of their current financial situation? Or is it more voluntary? I guess I can understand pledging and making a commitment for people who already have their financial house in order (or those who could get it that way with a little effort) but for people who are already behind on bills and deeply in debt it seems like adding one more bill on. Just currious how this works?

[momof1in150]

Pledging is voluntary. Many people fill out our pledge card by marking - "I am unable to commit to a monthly pledge" We have many people that put $5 in the offering plate but other that can put $100s. It takes everyone. Many that can't give financially give with time and talents.

[anonymous_saver]

Sorry for being so blunt, but I think it is extremely foolish to give to charities or to tithe when you are in debt.

Sure if you have lots of extra money, you can do with it what you want, but even then I'm not so sure - because even though you are out of debt, are you still saving enough for your retirement or emergency fund, or other necessities?

Just my two cents.

[momof1in150]

Originally Posted by anonymous_saver

Sorry for being so blunt, but I think it is extremely foolish to give to charities or to tithe when you are in debt.

Sure if you have lots of extra money, you can do with it what you want, but even then I'm not so sure - because even though you are out of debt, are you still saving enough for your retirement or emergency fund, or other necessities?

Just my two cents.

This is your opinion and you are entitled to it. My children receive a Christian Education from my church every Sunday and we have many activities that are funded through our church so we support them with our weekly pledge. I would do this because I truly feel that if you take care of God's house then God will take care of you. It hasn't failed me yet.

[Gruntina]

Originally Posted by anonymous_saver

Sorry for being so blunt, but I think it is extremely foolish to give to charities or to tithe when you are in debt.

Sure if you have lots of extra money, you can do with it what you want, but even then I'm not so sure - because even though you are out of debt, are you still saving enough for your retirement or emergency fund, or other necessities?

Just my two cents.

For me charities are last on my priorities. However, I see tithing and charities as two completely different meanings and actually, tithing is my number one priority. For me it means I am giving my thoughts and concern with how I spend ALL of my money in a way I think is best since I am including God in all of my decision. But again that is just me and my spiritual thought.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by anonymous_saver

Sorry for being so blunt, but I think it is extremely foolish to give to charities or to tithe when you are in debt.

Do you think people shouldn't donate to charities if they have a mortgage? That's debt. How about a car payment or student loans or even a credit card balance? If everyone in debt suddenly stopped supporting charities, this country would fall apart overnite.

As long as you are current with all of your obligations, I see nothing wrong with supporting the charities of your choice. Now tithing is a whole different issue because, as many have said, it isn't about finances and debating it is pointless.

[Quynne]

Originally Posted by LivingAlmostLarge

Somehow I just don't get how people who tithe can't take the time to read specific question. They just look at two words, debt and tithe and don't bother to read the post.

Yes, it does seem that your question was lost a bit. Has it really been your experience that only tithing people don't take the time to read posts clearly? Well...those on tithing and debt? I guess I can see that. Tithing is such a hot topic that some look for any opportunity to express their opinion. Not unlike many other topics that go off topic.

However, I think I answered your question. I did say debt...sorry...that can cover a multitude of things. I expressed that my debt and behind payments is outside of God's will and for that reason I didn't see it as conflict to continue to tithe. Now.....there have been weeks where we didn't tithe. My husband will pay the mortage and not tithe if that is what is needed. However, he will make up for that tithe the next week or with the tax return. I think we tithed 48 weeks out of 52 last year. We get a statement from the church for tax purposes. Now..I understand the logic behind not tithing. However...that is also why I said this was NOT an finanical issue but a spiritual one. I promise that is not a cop out. I just don't feel I could counsel someone not to tithe. I have also learned that if I cannot pay my bills on 90% of my income that other 10% isn't going make a difference. There is more wrong with my budget or spending than 10%. I also believe that God can do more with my 90% than I can do on 10%. So, you see...it is a conviction. Sometimes logic just doesn't enter into spiritual decisions. I do see nothing wrong with NOT tithing on a hard week and making up for it later. I could be wrong about that but I really don't see that as a problem.

This is sorta off topic...but...did you all know that the guy who wrote the Purpose Driven Life says he reverse tithes. He lives on 10% and tithes 90%! I guess when your 10% is a million dollars you can do that. lol. Rick Warren..that is his name...I don't care much for him anyway.

[Aleta]

Yes I heard that . But he didn't start out like that. He eventually eased himself down to tithing 90% and living on 10%.

[tabbycat31]

I have a quick question to those of you who do tithe?

How is giving to your church different from giving to say the American Cancer Society, United Way, or the SPCA.

Just curious.