Need advice, Mother in law, wow

[flash]

Ima, you have us, too, for what it's worth. Priceless?

[frugalfarmwife]

Aww Ima I agree with flash, ya have the board members here, the ones that understand our lifestyles

I have family also, mom and three brothers but really no contact with older brothers, we have nothing in common, so it's mom, younger brother hubby and I here. My mom respects our space and our decisions. Younger brother will be my responsibility to oversee when moms gone, he works and is pretty independent but does need a bit of overseeing to keep the laundry done and bills paid He's handicapable!

And hubby is flustered, amazed, furious that brother has turned this into an attack and saddened. He's going to talk to the other brother and see what he knows so far and go from there, but he will NOT have his wife or his life attacked this way.

Love that man! Best hubby in the world!

And Flash so sorry to hear the situation with your mom and brother, so sad all we want is the best for them but we're just "the kids" so what do we know? It gets so tiring beating our heads on the wall.


kj

[markitcat]

Please, walk away from this situation. Whatever you do or say is going to be twisted so you come up looking like the troublemaker. She reeling you in, you gotta get off the hook.
This mil is controlling everyone with money. You didn't take that bait so now she's trying to control you and your husband with her money problems. Setting it up so your scrapping with the other siblings. This woman is manipulating the situation. Disengage, go back, run away. Danger, danger, warning, warning. She came to you asking for help, now she won't take any of your suggestions, and is backstabbing you by fanning the fires between you and youngest son. Your intention was to give her finacial advice which you've done, don't get sucked into this mamma drama. Now that I have your attention, You don't have to be rude or cruel in letting go, just step back and emotionally disengage from this situation. If she asks for advice, give it because it sounds like you have a grip finacially. Keep the emotion out of this situation. Your Mil is also an adult who should have learned how to say no to her children before they could crawl. So she taught the youngest son that she can't say no to him.

[locolorenzo24]

Ok, what I'm about to say comes from my work.....
I work with mentally ill adults. Too many of them show up after families finally admit that something's "wrong". Often, they come into work after a few days to visit and we explain what we do, but keep smuggling in cigarettes, booze, etc...
We end up confronting some of them and showing that they are "enablers" who, if they get a little tougher, can show their sons/daughters/wives/husbands that their behavior cannot be tolerated....Some success, some failure.
I wish you luck, you're going to need it. But you have the great ability to realize that even if you're out of the will, it doesn't matter. Try to seperate the emotional from the facts...and keep your perspective.

[frugalfarmwife]

Thanks Markitcat and loco, it is an enabling situation and has been there in one way or another since I "stole" my hubby away from them (actually long before). We don't visit often as it's not possible, with hubbies full time job and the farm we just can't get away, you can't just walk away from 80 head of animals, it takes a lot of planning. When we do actually make it to visit we constantly get grief for never being there (oh yeah, THAT makes us want to visit!) Mom controls by whining and giving hubby gifts.

The brothers haven't been here in years to visit us, hubby always tells them "you know where we live and you know our number, the phone works both ways".

The "boys" have lives and families, in MY opinion they should come first, they should honor their parents by being good productive members of society and good spouses.

I also know that I'm not the easiest person to get along with either, but I've always gone out of my way to make sure that hubby visits/stays in touch with his family, I even schedule for him to spend time with his mom a few times a year, just about pushing him out the door, lol, just to keep the peace. I do make appearances and am pleasant for major holiday get togethers.

We have been made out to be the bad guys in this situation (younger brother claiming that we're part of the problem for having accepted gifts from her and not being there all the time) But for the last 15 years it's been this way, after all I stole him from the family and moved him away.

The second brother in some ways is a lot like me, we don't get what we want by whining and pouting, we're right in your face. The problem with he and I is as hubby says "we both know we're not always right but we have a problem admitting we're wrong" lol, hubby is VERY insightful! This brother is very aggressive and is a Jones, has to have it all now and I know he's borrowed/taken a lot from mom and in deep, but yesterday isn't the problem in moms situation, getting back the money isn't what needs done here, that won't work and would just cause more problems, I went into this trying to get mom to take baby steps and start fresh from today, stopping the leaks, not getting the money back thats already gone. This brother (#2) has 4 daughters and just took on a new house in a better school district which is a GOOD thing, bettering the future of their 4 daughters. His wife is a 5'2" powerhouse that keeps it all together and I REALLY respect her ability to run her house/family and work full time, but know that their bills are horrendous and that mom has helped a lot, but thats for the good of the grandchildren and we don't resent that in the slightest.

And I know that hubbies mom thinks we're close with my mom and that angers her also, we live close but we have separate lives, we don't see each other very often and don't barge into each others lives, we call before visiting and respect each other as adults.

I'm out unless ask specific questions, and hubbies fine, just sad that we got sucked in as far as we did, if mom calls him one on one he'll help, but he's really let her have it about baby brother hiding at her house/not having a job/making 30,000 under the table and hiring buddies under the table to do landscaping/construction, she's approved of all of this.

We're fine, again, keep it out of our house, discuss it only while doing chores and going on with our lives.

kj

[frugalfarmwife]

Originally Posted by locolorenzo24

Ok, what I'm about to say comes from my work.....
I work with mentally ill adults. Too many of them show up after families finally admit that something's "wrong". Often, they come into work after a few days to visit and we explain what we do, but keep smuggling in cigarettes, booze, etc...
We end up confronting some of them and showing that they are "enablers" who, if they get a little tougher, can show their sons/daughters/wives/husbands that their behavior cannot be tolerated....Some success, some failure.
I wish you luck, you're going to need it. But you have the great ability to realize that even if you're out of the will, it doesn't matter. Try to seperate the emotional from the facts...and keep your perspective.

We're going to suggest and outside debt counselor to help her out in this situation, we're just to close to the situation.

I really hope that my babbling about this can help someone else in the future, get education to go with the money!

kj

[Ima saver]

I appreciate what you said, flash and frugalfarmwife. You have a tough situation and I think you are a very strong person. I hate to see your MIL homeless, but unless she changes her way about her son, she is eventually going to use up all of her bond money and lose her condo. She asked you for help, right?
I am surprised you can ever go to visit at all. My BIL has 4 horses and he has to hire someone to come and feed them several times a day.

[PrincessPerky]

I doubt much you say will help, but if you practice some short remarks you might...

I know some short things dh has said have heled with our homeschooling (not aproved on his side)

Like when she says if she has it she wants to give it, well pretty soon she wont have anything! I doubt she noticed.

And it doesn't seem to be appriciated, if gifts happen all the time we would take them for granted (like running water!)

I dunno how to help her whining, but once my MIL used to always complain about DHs hair (long and curly, two things she hates) I threatened jokingly to die it blue and give her something real to complain about. I haven't heard one word since :0. dunno if you can find a similar break thru for your MIL.

On the boy staying home, she misses him... but she is doing him a disservice, I wouldn't suggest total cutoff, but I would take back the CC and kill the phone, actually I would suggest she pick. list the expenses and total it up, then suggest halving(or less) it her way. So all boys get money, but not all as much. then if your DH is cool with it take his third and put it in the bank for when she runs out from giving extra to the other two!

[frugalfarmwife]

PP little things aren't going to work in this situation, the brother isn't a kid, he's a 29 year old man with a wife, child, house and two vehicles, one in his mothers name! Now the collection agency is after them for the one vehicle so it's just a matter of time before they're after the vehicle in moms name! Brother hasn't worked in 4 months, his wife makes maybe enough to cover the house payment and electric, not much else.

Mom has more going out than coming in, selling what bonds she has monthly to cover the condo payments, she has a loan for 40,000 coming due in July and if she can't refinance it will take almost everything she has left, she's in a BAD situation and is still denying it.

The BIGGEST problem is she ask for help but EVERY suggestion is taken as a personal assault and a "but, but, but" and reasons why she can't do it.

EVERY CC payment is late, brother is using the CC's and not paying for his charges, mom is paying his truck insurance, mom was paying 200 cell phone bills for them, they're adults!

We're weren't pointing fingers at anyone and attempted to make it a "don't look at yesterday, start fresh from today and CUT BILLS and cut off payments for others" but she's obsessing on things like how the banks aren't treating her fairly, she doesn't understand an interest only variable rate loan, the boys need her and need her to help with bills, etc. Oh, and she won't give up her cable.

And yes, since she couldn't control hubby and I with the money now she's trying to suck us in with guilt to help her get out of this and succeeding in turning everyone against each other, it's turned into "well you weren't here to help" from the brother.

I'm sorry, but a parent should raise a child and be proud of them going off to be a productive adult, not want to continually drag them back home in any way that they can which is what she is doing.

Oh, and I've learned the little games years ago with her, they used to bug us about having kids, I finally told her she didn't want us to have kids, I'm a stickler for dicipline with my animals and don't like to be ask why, hubbies a guy that when he gets involved in things he's lost to the world, so I told her if we had a kid either I'd kill it or he'd lose it, lol, she leaves us alone about that now

I am going to be the bigger person and apologize for my attack on the brother when he talked about me to defend himself to mom, he didn't have any right to bring me into it but my exploding and taking his head off wasn't the right thing for this situation. It's not going to be easy to apologize and then NOT point out all his lies again, but I will do it and let it go from there. WE (hubby and I) know he's lying but trying to point that out will just cause more fights, we'll just sit back and sadly watch him hang himself, sad, and somehow he'll turn it around to be our fault again but it won't affect our personal life and that's what matters to hubby and I.

kj

[PrincessPerky]

I meant kid in the sense he is still acting like one, not number.

and the little things take time, lots of time. maybe too much.

good luck on your apology, I am terrible at those!

[flash]

FFW,

Your situation just sounds too much like my family.

Hate to give more advice, but the easiest way to deal with this may be to actually lay it out, spread sheet or type up a list, or whatever. It is harder to argue with "buts" and excuses when it's laid out clearly. Then whatever she says, whatever reasons, it still gets back to that line item sitting there. What does SHE want to do about it, how can YOU help with this problem, but without giving her the options of you footing the bill.

To the argument she can do what she wants with her money, been there. Again, lay it out if you can, how soon will she be broke and what is she going to do? You have the RIGHT to do what YOU WANT with your money, and you and DH come first. She may not like it, but it is so much harder to rationalize things when they are laid out on paper as cold hard unemotional facts.

Also, of course, let DH take the lead, and make sure she knows that HE is putting his foot down, not that it's you and somehow she can go behind your back or manipulate him.

Hope that helps.

[Ima saver]

Yes, it is good to see things down on paper, in black and white. I always need to write things down. Keep us informed on how things are turning out.

[PrincessPerky]

You know if she admits that her kid can't do it, she would be admiting to a failure as a parent, not very easy for anyone to do.

If she admits she is spending faster than making, she is admiting to being a failure with money, admiting that things she has done for so long are wrong.

That is not easy to do for anyone, the buts are trying to hold oin to things she believes are fundemental to her.....

Not that that helps her, but it might help you to understnad why she is stonewalling.

[locolorenzo24]

You know Flash, you might as well be describing my family.

My brother went to school out of state and my parents paid the bills for him to get a 4 year marine biology degree....then he got married during his last year of school to a woman 7 years older with 2 kids. Couldn't make enough doing marine bio work, so he switched to car mechaniac in dealerships.
Then they moved to PA, and he went back to law school while working for a Mercedes dealer. Now, he's almost out, but works as a paralegal for a drug lawyer office...
Well, this whole time, my mom has been sending him and SIL money to help out him and the kids...especially while things were tough. They have 1 kid of their own, plus the other 2. Well, my SIL went with my niece to Mom's house for a vacation and the two of them had a HUGE blowup! Brother had to drive down to pick up the two of them then turn around and come back to PA.
Now the two of them won't talk because somehow my mom has become the problem, and my brother won't admit that it was his borrowing the money, asking for cosigner, etc. that became the problem. The $$ became the guilt trip...
In his defense, mom only sent biological Granddaughter a christmas present, ignoring the other 2 kids. Then mom always says it's the SIL's fault, not his! SIL also has the oppourtunity now as niece is in school during the day to get a 2nd job to help the family, but shows no interest. I don't know how stay at home mom's cope when the kids are all in school.
It's gotten so bad my brother almost won't invite her to his graduation in May, she's clueless, but needs to know, but I can't/won't say anything along those lines, it's his decision. However, I do think it's a touch crass that he was willing to "put up" with her when he needed $ but now that he's doing better it becomes a "she's a problem" situation. It's not that I don't approve, but I'm not going to comment on it regardless because it becomes a issue of "two vs. one, etc...." Things are coming to a head soon though, I'm sure!
Sorry about that, just had to vent!

[frugalfarmwife]

Ok, first Flash I'm LAUGHING here Our giving her money is NOT an option, we're NOT in a position to loan money, we're not broke but our money is tied up in our land and equiptment with not much to spare. And the way his family is we wouldn't ever loan any of them money even if we could!

And Loco, I feel for you, money does nothing but make problems in families, and your brother does have to live with his wife but should NOT have treated your mom that way (but mom should have gotten all three kids presents too)

And if she would just be honest with us when we're attempting to get her to list her bills it would be a lot easier but she stalls, then says "you're going to be mad at me but I also pay..." we repeatedly tell her we have no reason to be mad, we're not upset and aren't expecting anything, we just want her to be financially stable!

I've been in denial before and understand how she feels, and we're not using guilt in any way in this, just trying to repeatedly explain we're good at these things and can look through budgets to find places to cut/squeeze, etc.

We haven't been in touch with her this week, actually waiting for her to call us which may not happen after my taking the brothers head off earlier this week, we can only hope she's working on the few things we told her to start, listing all bills, tracking all spending, etc.

And they also probably figured out who told the collection agency how to get in touch with them about brothers car BUT I ACTUALLY DID THEM A FAVOR! If they were calling all of us in alphabetical order the middle brother would have been next and he would have really ripped baby brother over it!

This will be an interesting ride, but we ARE going to suggest she get a professional to help her with this.

kj

[Ima saver]

I think you are doing a great job giving her all this advice. I hope she is smart enough to take it.

[baselle]

Wow. This is out of my depth - I know that I would have rather stuck a nine inch needle deeply into my eye than go back and live with my parents. Now its not possible. And I felt hopelessly guilty that I sponged about 800$ from grandfather when I was in NC after hurricane fran.

I think you'll have to enjoy the fact that your MIL and your BIL think you're mean, and we all think that your MIL and BIL are crazy. Both MIL and BIL are legal adults; unfortunately they are using money like an alcoholic uses vodka, replete with denials and blackouts. MIL's (and therefore BIL's) gravy train is running low. They want to continue their relationship with money the way it is, but they soon won't. Too bad. They will run through the inheritance. They will have to hit bottom before learning and healing can occur.

The best you can do is offer advice, protect the innocent, and hunker down for the storm.

[flash]

Good advice, Baselle. It IS like alcohol or drug dependency. For my DB, he dreams of being ahead, but then spends it immediately. He took out his retirement funds to buy himself a christmas gift -- tools now for when he retires in 15 years, then told his kids he could not afford to get THEM christmas gifts. Hubby and I made up the difference for the kids, then DB got mad at me because he felt like a poor father. So this year, he said NO GIFTS for the kids, (but okay for him), then got mad because the kids were miserable. 4 kids, but he is recently divorced, and they only visit at the holidays and summer. BTW, he bought his wife AND mom the same orchid for Valentines last year, then couldn't figure out why his wife didn't think it was romantic. Mom sent him $10K to cover his cc debt, which he immediately racked up to 10K AGAIN. She sent him her SSI, and then said she could not afford her insulin and other meds, so guess who footed the bill? Totally crazy. I always say I will help the innocent caught in their wake, but not him, yet I always end up helping the people who help him. AGH.

No advice, here, but I do feel your pain! Thanks for the vent.

[baselle]

Wow, flash...now that's poor planning!

And unfortunately, you have to make a distinction between the innocent (kids who don't understand and spouse who is trying to keep it together) and the gullible (helping the enablers enable).

[frugalfarmwife]

Baselle I hear you on the nine inch nail in the eye before moving in! My mom and I respect each other and have set plans years ago that we'll never be under the same roof, no way, no how, ain't happening!

Flash, you are a very kind person for not KICKING YOUR BROTHERS BUTT! So sad for his kids and it's so kind of you to do something extra for the kids.

And why is it there is almost always that one kid that just does the parents in? I see that in so many families that I know, just sad

Again, thanks for letting me vent guys, it's really helped me a LOT.

We haven't talked to MIL this week, hoping things are going well but not holding my breath.

The thing that has been interesting is that hubby has really been thinking about his family and how he's been treated over the years, and how thankful he is that we have the farm and a good group of close friends with similiar lifestyles and values, sometimes family isn't blood

kj