Should US wealth be redistributed?

[jmjj215]

Okay - that's what I was looking fo then - actual treasury collections. Kind of looks like Robin Hood in reverse. Congress being the man in tights.

[VJW]

Well, but Congress was (foolishly) merely implementing the Reagan agenda.

It’s too bad the report is not available online, as it has some really illustrative charts that support the study quite nicely. I just happen to still have a hardcopy sitting on my bookshelf.

I wish I had unfettered access to the current 'GREEN BOOK' data.

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[jmjj215]

VJW, how do you remedy a situation where the wealthy remain wealthy or get even wealthier because they're wealthy in the first place? I read an article just last week that mentioned that the poor have a higher standard of living as far as the 'niceties' of life go. The gap is obviously getting larger, but in absolute terms, how are the poor doing? I know you cite the wage declining, etc. but what I read said they have more than they ever have before.

[cercis]

Jesse, they have more because: 1) it is more acceptable to be in debt now and credit is amazingly easy to get and 2) goods are so much cheaper now. Used to be, a color tv was a week's pay or more, now, you can get a decent color tv (used) for $50 or less, you can get a new one for less than $100.

DH and I get credit offers all the time. We were offered a $100k limit credit card. Who needs that high of a limit? Together, we might, in a good year, gross half that amount.

[jmjj215]

The offered it, but were you already approved? If so, that is crazy. I guess the question isn't do they have more, but what do they have more of? Electronics' prices certainly have gone down, but last time I checked, milk hadn't...

[cercis]

Jesse, I didn't try for it, but it said "pre approved". I figured "pre-approved" meant we would get it (it said specifically pre-approved for $100k credit limit).

And you're right, many poor people have electronics but are chronically hungry. Part of that is that electronics are a one time purchase and relatively inexpensive, food is an ongoing purchase and getting higher all the time.

[VJW]

Originally Posted by jmjj215

VJW, how do you remedy a situation where the wealthy remain wealthy or get even wealthier because they're wealthy in the first place?

But that’s not why it happened. As the study quite plainly indicates, it was intentional changes in public policy that created the massive shift in income.

I read an article just last week that mentioned that the poor have a higher standard of living as far as the 'niceties' of life go. The gap is obviously getting larger, but in absolute terms, how are the poor doing?

Well, Poverty has risen each and every year of the past five years. What does that tell you ?

I know you cite the wage declining, etc. but what I read said they have more than they ever have before.

But they’re falling behind faster now than ever before. You have to ask yourself, relative to what ? If your income rises by 2.5% but the inflation in the underlying economy is 5%, you are going backwards. This phenomenon is difficult for some to feel, as it’s not as obvious as a pay cut or runaway inflation, as a decline in Standard of Living is stealthy.

Not to mention that a lot what you are reading is based upon older data. Remember, from 1993 through 2000, Poverty declined each and every year, and by record historic rates, and real wages were rising as the national labor force swelled.

cercis also makes a good point. A lot of what has been mentioned are so-called “one time” purchases. People could have bought a computer, or a color TV, or an up-scale refrigerator, or an air conditioner in the 90s when they were doing better, and still have those items because their life span is 10, 15, or twenty years, but they are now in Poverty.

Poverty is relative to income, whereas wealth is relative to assets.

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[shelbylovesmelby]

(sorry I didn't read all the posts)

Originally Posted by jmjj215

The offered it, but were you already approved? If so, that is crazy. I guess the question isn't do they have more, but what do they have more of? Electronics' prices certainly have gone down, but last time I checked, milk hadn't...

I agree the prices of food han't gone down, but rather up. Milk in 2004 was outragious here... it was almost $4.50/gal! Now it's keeping paces with the cost of gas per gal.

Electronics prices are going down because of how rapidly new gadgets come on the market & others obsolete.

What would make the working poor to middle class have a lil bit more $ in their wallets is to bring back the high paying jobs we sent to Mexico (til they formed unions) & then they shipped them off to China. If the workers in China could form Unions there & demand higher wages maybe just maybe some of the big companies would bring their mfg back to the USA.

just my .02

[cercis]

Shelby, I have my own ideas about those manufacturing jobs. My thought is that currently we give corporations a nice little tax benefit (they are taxed less than individuals). Let's tax them more BUT then give them tax credits for number of jobs they create in the US. It might not make them bring jobs back to the US, but at least the government would get more tax revenue and could afford to fund things like universal healthcare (which has been listed as the #1 reason people don't start their own businesses).

[jmjj215]

But that’s not why it happened.

But don't you think the wealthy 'influence' this policy much more than the middle/poor class (through campaign contributions and/or their network)?

[shelbylovesmelby]

Cercis - I think that is a good strategy, universal health care is a must for everyone. We do need to keep the companies that are here, growing. Too bad we couldn't put companies that subcontract out overseas a higher tax bracket. If anyone has noticed recently that the person on the other end when you call various companies customer service lines, not based this country but is sitting in a call center in INDIA! Additionally in order for the US to compete with some of the goods we need to have a bit more give with the EPA. If anyone has ever noticed that most shoes are made in Asia? Not only wages & child labor fall into play but the EPA doesn't allow the use of certain chemicals used in the process of tanning leather.

[cercis]

I don't think the EPA should give at all. They aren't strict enough in most cases.

If companies can't do it within the bounds of the EPA, then they aren't trying, or they're making excuses.

Ever notice that we have majorly increased our incidences of autism, cancer and alzheimer's? Ever think that could be caused by manufacturing chemicals? Chemicals that aren't necessary.

[jmjj215]

Some requirements of the EPA make investment in various ventures extremely unprofitable. I think there's room for them to give some, and be stricter in other areas. That's probably pie-in-the-sky thinking though.

[VJW]

Quite.

One of the many RightWing myths the eight years of the Clinton administration roundly discredited was that tightening (not to mention actually enforcing) environmental regulations costs jobs and slows the economy.

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[VJW]

Originally Posted by jmjj215

But don't you think the wealthy 'influence' this policy much more than the middle/poor class (through campaign contributions and/or their network)?

Of course. Real campaign finance reform would produce elected officials that represent the people who elected them instead of the people who financed them.

Again, the system is rigged to benefit the wealthy.

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[jmjj215]

Again, the system is rigged to benefit the wealthy.

...because the wealthy have the money. So how do you fix that? It's a viscious cycle.

[VJW]

The easiest way would be to encourage more working people that their VOTE would matter.

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[sweeps]

Originally Posted by VJW

The easiest way would be to encourage more working people that their VOTE would matter.

Be careful what you wish for. The Republicans were effective in convincing evangelical Christians that their vote matters, and look at the result.

[VJW]

Given the polling, I would have no problem with the Working Poor and Middle-class voting in much larger numbers.

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[ChillPhatCat]

Originally Posted by barbara L

How does that saying go "Give a person a fish and you teach them nothing, but train a person to fish and you teach them everything" (?)

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for a life time.