Buying organic vs. saving $$

[pyotr]

It's true that organic foods have been shown to be lower in synthetic pesticides - when kids eat conventional produce, they pee out pesticides in large amounts, when the same kids switch out to organic produce, they stop peeing out these pesticides (studies published last Fall). Yet there is still no research showing what if any damage or harm comes to humans from being exposed to these pesticides (theoretical concerns only). In addition, there is good research showing that "organic produce" have higher levels of non-synthetic ("natural") pesticides (like pyrethrins and rotenones). Unfortunately, neither the FDA nor the organic certifying organizations are measuring and monitoring these "natural" pesticide classifications. There is plentiful evidence in animal studies that many of these "natural" pesticides (which the organic industry ignores) are just as harmful as "synthetic" pesticides that the organic industry vilifies so much.

Secondly, there have been several good studies demonstrating that organic produce are more contaminated with pathogenic bacteria (various strains of E.coli, Salmonella, and other enteric bacteria). That is, organic produce are "dirtier" than conventional produce. This is a byproduct of the "organic" manure smeared on organic produce in order to fertilize them. I don't think this method is in any way "healthier" or more nutritional than conventional fertilizing methods using cleaner nitrogen fertilizers - it is in fact much more dangerous.

Large-scale antibiotic use in corporate farming is a huge problem and needs to be curtailed. Despite indications suggesting a greater awareness of the dangers of antibiotic overusage by organic farmers and a "desire" to withhold antibiotic/antifungal etc. usage in their husbandry, it is quite clear that almost all organic farms, especially the large organic corporations, use antibiotics systematically in order to maintain their animals/plants.

There is a demonization of "genetically-modified" foods by the pro-organic crowd also - all conjured up by people who don't understand what a genetic modification is. I guess if you don't understand it, you're against it. I think it's time for the organic industry and the rest of the pro-organic crowd to pay more attention to these and other problems with the organic industry. By other problems, I'm talking about the fundamental potential for corruption within the organic certification process (politically, financially, etc.).

I'm tempted to buy organic apples, oranges, carrots, celery. I don't because the prices are outrageous and I've not found any evidence that eating organic is in fact healthier for me and my kids. Kids peeing pesticides does sound shocking and repulsive, but that's just an emotional response. I'd love to see some real evidence that organic produce reduces the incidence of cancer, childhood developmental delays, or any other plausible end-results. My guess is that we'll never see such evidence because in fact the contrary may be true. So don't think you're superior just because you eat organic - you may just be getting duped by the industry.

[flash]

There are just so many errors in your information, I don't know where to start. Contrary, fern, divajen, kashi? Anyone?

[starving_student]

There is hardly any organic food in any mainstream grocery store (Albertson, Safeway, Frys...etc...) and Whatever is there is hugely overpriced. I eat organic and usually for cheaper than the price of non organic food. You have to know where to shop and be willing to make several stop. Trader's Joes have organic pasta for 99 cents a pound which is roughly the price that you find for non organic pasta. They have organic sauce for 2$ a pot etc..., Go to a few health food store and buy the best deals in each.

[lrjohnson]

Originally Posted by starving_student

Trader's Joes have organic pasta for 99 cents a pound which is roughly the price that you find for non organic pasta. .

What area are you shopping in? I'm definitely pro-organic, and I'm even pro-spending-more-on-organic but I never pay over fifty cents a pound for pasta. For me it would be double. I love Trader Joe's and do need more organic foods in my diet, but to me that's a huge increase.

[starving_student]

You can buy bulk organic flour for 45cents a pound at Wild oat and make up your own pasta. That will come up to less than 50cents a pound.

[flash]

Our Safeway carries everything from Kashi to Amy's to Bobs Red Mill, to Seeds of Change...they also have their own organic line, which is certified, and recently had $1 off coupons on their line, for maybe three months...made things very reasonable. MOST stores are picking up organic lines, and almost every major manufacturer is adding organic.

Kraft Foods gained almost 5% revenues just from new organic products this QUARTER. I have my own opinions on organic Chips Ahoy, etc., but it's a huge trend, the number one trend for the year for all manufacturers. Target has their own line. Walmart is investing in their own line.

It's EXTREMELY different marketing and slotting for 2006, though. Don't look in specialty aisles, the slotting is done in mainstream aisles, right next to the "regular" products.

There are a large number of manufacturer coupons for organics, too.

[Fern]

Originally Posted by pyotr

It's true that organic foods have been shown to be lower in synthetic pesticides - when kids eat conventional produce, they pee out pesticides in large amounts, when the same kids switch out to organic produce, they stop peeing out these pesticides (studies published last Fall). Yet there is still no research showing what if any damage or harm comes to humans from being exposed to these pesticides (theoretical concerns only). In addition, there is good research showing that "organic produce" have higher levels of non-synthetic ("natural") pesticides (like pyrethrins and rotenones). Unfortunately, neither the FDA nor the organic certifying organizations are measuring and monitoring these "natural" pesticide classifications. There is plentiful evidence in animal studies that many of these "natural" pesticides (which the organic industry ignores) are just as harmful as "synthetic" pesticides that the organic industry vilifies so much.

Secondly, there have been several good studies demonstrating that organic produce are more contaminated with pathogenic bacteria (various strains of E.coli, Salmonella, and other enteric bacteria). That is, organic produce are "dirtier" than conventional produce. This is a byproduct of the "organic" manure smeared on organic produce in order to fertilize them. I don't think this method is in any way "healthier" or more nutritional than conventional fertilizing methods using cleaner nitrogen fertilizers - it is in fact much more dangerous.

Large-scale antibiotic use in corporate farming is a huge problem and needs to be curtailed. Despite indications suggesting a greater awareness of the dangers of antibiotic overusage by organic farmers and a "desire" to withhold antibiotic/antifungal etc. usage in their husbandry, it is quite clear that almost all organic farms, especially the large organic corporations, use antibiotics systematically in order to maintain their animals/plants.

There is a demonization of "genetically-modified" foods by the pro-organic crowd also - all conjured up by people who don't understand what a genetic modification is. I guess if you don't understand it, you're against it. I think it's time for the organic industry and the rest of the pro-organic crowd to pay more attention to these and other problems with the organic industry. By other problems, I'm talking about the fundamental potential for corruption within the organic certification process (politically, financially, etc.).

I'm tempted to buy organic apples, oranges, carrots, celery. I don't because the prices are outrageous and I've not found any evidence that eating organic is in fact healthier for me and my kids. Kids peeing pesticides does sound shocking and repulsive, but that's just an emotional response. I'd love to see some real evidence that organic produce reduces the incidence of cancer, childhood developmental delays, or any other plausible end-results. My guess is that we'll never see such evidence because in fact the contrary may be true. So don't think you're superior just because you eat organic - you may just be getting duped by the industry.

Well, you've all probably heard that Walmart will introduce a huge organic line, effectively bringing healthy eating to the masses.

I'm not sure where you get your info from, but i don't think it's true that organic farmers routinely use antibiotics. Also, the reason you may not find a study that 'proves' years of eating organic reduces the incidence of cancer is because it would be impossible to conduct a rigorous scientific test that would discount for other factors entirely independent of eating organic. For instance, how would you know that an adult who spent 30 years eating only organic was cancer free, becus of eating organic or becus he also led a healthy lifestyle in other ways, such as regularly exercising, maintaining a healthy body weight, family genetics and so on?

It is true that even organic produce contains small residual amounts of pesticides. So it's not entirely organic, but certainly a great deal safer to eat than produce grown using conventional pesticides. The residual amounts show up on organic produce becus many farmers grow produce both organically and not organiclly, and when the not organic fields are being sprayed, depending on wind conditons, there's a certain amount of pesticide blown around. I address this concern by using Veggie Wash spray, which is supposed to remove various residues more effectively than water alone. Their website references their own studies as to effectiveness. Do I have absolute proof? No, but for the price i pay for it, it's worth it.

The whole genetic modification of food is an entirely separate issue. It's not just pro-organic people who oppose it, by the way, becus the issues are entirely different than using pesticides, or not.

[simpleselu]

I will only buy natural, hormone-free, anti-biotic free meat, which means a good sale on burger is $3/lb. We just don't use a ton of meat anymore, I can't remember the last time I had a "piece" of meat. And I did break down and buy a conventional turkey tenderloin.

I have a stockpile of Stonyfield Farms and Organic Valley coupons so on a super doubles week I get milk, yogurt, butter, cheese, cream cheese, etc. cheaper than I would a conventional product.

With Santa Cruz coupons, I've gotten FREE lemonade and applesauce.

I will only buy organic berries and spinach, but I go with whatever is cheaper for the rest of my produce.

Since I buy grains in bulk, organic and conventional are about the same, and conventionals are more expensive if they are not bulk due to packaging.

Mainly, I keep my foods simple and cook from scratch (and I mean, scratch, no canned soup or premade biscuits for me). DH and I spend less than $100 on food and $20 of that is for breakfast out at the organic diner.

[mariec99]

Buying high quality and organic food is a priority for me, so in order to do that and not break the bank, I do not eat fast food and I limit restaurant meals with friends to twice per month. I take lunch to work (usually salad or leftovers). I feel that if I take care of my health, I will have fewer medical bills, better skin, etc and save money in the end.

There are also some items for which organic is not as critical. For example, conventially grown watermelon is ok since you don't eat the rind. But cherries, which have thin, edible skins and absorb pesticides more easily, would be better if organic. Always wash fruits and veggies throughly.

NOTE: Some foods labeled natural still have HIGH-FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP in them. So always check the labels.

[Fern]

i find it reallyl hard to eat what i consider 'healthy' because my SO is just the opposite. Here's his typical diet:
* Tons of soda, all day long (he's in perfect physical shape, ironically)
* Lots of red meat
* lots of sugary sweet breakfast cereals, muffins and cakes, desserts, a real sweet tooth

he does a lot of the cooking (grilling) when we're together, so it's hard often to pass up something that just smells delicisous, even tho if i were by myself i wouldn't even have purchased it.

i solve this dilemma by eating my very simple mostly non-meat meals M-F, then indulging on the weekends. Wish i could do better tho

[mariec99]

This list is the "dirty dozen" foods which absorb a lot of pesticides and for which buying organic yields the most benefit:
apples, bell peppers, celery, cherries, grapes, nectarines, peaches, pears, potatoes, red raspberries, spinach and strawberries.
I got this list from the September 2006 issue of SHAPE magazine, but I have seen it in other places, too.

[TBH]

That's great, Mariec99. Does anybody know about the opposite list, the list of foods that are relatively low in absorbed pesticides?

I have five children and would love to buy organic more often...but I just can't afford it! Maybe I'll try the experiment myself just to see.

[mariec99]

Does anybody know about the opposite list, the list of foods that are relatively low in absorbed pesticides?

Well, in the same article they write that things with thick skins or husks that are removed before eating don't absorb as many pesticides. Examples include: avocados, bananas, corn, mangos and oranges.

They also note that small farmers who might sell produce at farmers' markets are good organic buys. A lot of these farms are too small to afford to get the official organic certification even though they grow with the same organic techniques.

"Organic" isn't just about pesticides though. Products with organic certification are not allowed to use trans fats -- that's a huge benefit.

[DivaJen]

Katwoman just wrote a blog entry about finding Organic Valley organic powdered milk. Makes buying organic milk a wee bit cheaper!

[kashi]

Just stumbled across this thread - thanks so much for the info on pesticides! Definitely good info to know, and I passed it on to my loved ones.

Fern, how's the organic challenge going?

[JanH]

My father was an organic farmer before there were many of them. But over the years, I went for convenience. Now, with breast cysts, I was told to use organic milk and meats to get rid of the hormones. I've seen an improvement. I drink organic milk and use little red meat and have found some sources of hormone free meat. I eat as many organic things now as I can. Guess Dad was right all along. Another thing he can tell me I told you so over! lol

I know someone who is allergic to glutin. Apparently glutin is in alot of our foods. So, she is always reading the labels for anything free of it.

Wild Oats has some good variety, which I shop at often. But, I think it costs more to go organic.

[tinapbeana]

one other thing to note about organic produce is that it's not waxed. the was on conventional produce keeps it more attractive and may help its shelf life, but washing produce does not remove that wax. yummy...

[syracusa]

I don't know what to say...we have switched our 14 months old from formula to regular milk in the past two months and of course, we decided for organic.
It's just breaking the bank. He goes through a lot of milk and then leaves some in the bottle, then it goes bad - and we just keep buying tons of organic milk and this hasn't helped at all the grocery bill.

Any tips on how to save on organic milk?