This is not a good business plan

[terry1156]

I think the point is to sell your product for a profit:

<i>General Motors Corp. lost an average of $1,227 per vehicle in the first half of this year in North America, while cross-town rival Ford Motor Co. lost $139, according to new research from Harbour Consulting. </i> from <A HREF="http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/30/Autos/bc.autos.harbour.reut/index.htm">money.com</A>

[Russell]

Agreed but that's better than losing $15k+ on the vehicles that aren't selling. In fact, Toyota not too long ago hinted at buying GM!

The only thing GM (and even Ford) sells well is the trucks and SUVs. Given the high gas prices these days the outlook doesn't look too good for the Detroit giants. To make matters worse many analysts are speculating that the gas prices will go up to $100/barrel.

But look on the bright side, hopefully there will be fewer ghetto, monsterous SUVs and trucks to cut you off on the road

[CRFSaver]

Toyota and Honda also have advantages over Ford, Chrysler and GM, no unions and no legacy costs...

[cicy33]

I am sorry to burst your bubble but I don't think that SUV's are going away! Given that most people today have at least 2 to 4 children and those children are in sports and the laws requiring car seats until they graduate (okay, slight exageration) vehicles have to be bigger to accomodate. I drive a 1987 bmw (which I hate) and I am needing to up to a much bigger car for my four step kids to be able to get around. they are getting so cramped. and technically they are sharing a seatbelt in the back. We have a van that is old as molasses but really need something I can drive too! I cannot drive the van too hard to see around.

[CRFSaver]

Most people would agree that a Ford Explorer or othermidsized sport utility is a little different then an H2 or Suburban...

[Russell]

OK let me take you back in time. It was the Ford Explorer introduced in 1992 that coined the term SUV. Sure there were trucks before it like the Landcruiser, Montero, Cherokee etc but they didn't have the car like creature comfort features, they were 4x4s pure and simple built for a purpose. They weren't designed to be kids haulers.

Ford Explorer changed all that and was followed by many other manufacturers. Interestingly enough people that were buying thinking that their kids were safer riding big trucks were unfortunately wrong. They were more dangerous than a normal car. Explorer and 4Runners were notorious for rolling-over due to high center of gravity and body-on-frame contruction that they inherited from their 4x4 heritage. As the public fascination grew more and more companies started offering bigger and more car like trucks.

Now we're to the point where a 6500lbs Expedition is considered a normal sized truck. Of course, that wasn't big enough so Ford gave the public the 9000lbs Excursion that gives 9mpg. GM couldn't resist the urge so they did one better by giving the soccer moms Humvys to drive to the grocery stores and malls. I can't remember the last time I saw these ghetto mobiles occupied by more than 2 people at a time...even 2 people is quite rare.

But wait there more...the public wasn't getting enough of this big monsterosity so they started buying big pickup trucks for daily drivers. I mean real trucks that are built for hauling lumber and dirt! why ? I have no clue, of course, that wasn't enough either so they started putting lift-kits on these things to make them 5-9 inches taller. Now their bumpers are aiming perfectly at the heads of the people riding in passenger cars in front of them. Literally sitting at the same height as the eighteen wheelers. With such high center of gravity I'm surprised they don't roll-over at every on/off ramp. What's next ? buying and modifying delivery trucks like the Pepsi commercial with P. Diddy hints at ?

Personally, I don't care if anyone wants to buy an SUV or a truck for a legitimate reason but that's not how it is out there. Its all about getting the biggest car you can buy, sporting gangster 22" DUBs, blacking out the windows, grills, etc and then zipping in and out of the traffic with no regard for other people who may be carrying small children.

All I'm saying is that if you really need an SUV/truck then I'm sure you'll accept the fact that you'll be paying $120 to fill up the 30 gallon tank on your SUV every week that gives 15mpg.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news...ices/index.htm

Goodluck!

[VJW]

Originally Posted by CRFSaver

Toyota and Honda also have advantages over Ford, Chrysler and GM, no unions and no legacy costs...

Interesting that in Japan, both Toyota and Honda have unionized workforces and the workers at their auto assembly plants earn a higher wage than American workers at American auto plants.

#

[VJW]

Originally Posted by terry1156

I think the point is to sell your product for a profit:

General Motors Corp. lost an average of $1,227 per vehicle in the first half of this year in North America

Despite GM's losses in the first and second quarters of this year, it still has about $20 BILLION in cash reserves. Labor costs account for only 15 percent to 20 percent of the cost of a car, and GM's recent sales promotion, which offered consumers the same discount as employees, cost much more than GM’s annual healthcare costs.

#

[PrincessPerky]

bout that kid hauling, I hate SUVs and DH hates Vans, so where are we supposed to stick the kids if we have another one? They don't make wagons like they used to.

[Russell]

Originally Posted by PrincessPerky

bout that kid hauling, I hate SUVs and DH hates Vans, so where are we supposed to stick the kids if we have another one? They don't make wagons like they used to.

Well I grew up with 2 siblings and we did just fine (as I'm sure most of you guys here who were born in the pre-SUV era) with a passenger car that easily seated 2 adults in the front and 3 kids in the back. Of course, this is not possible if all three kids need car seats at the same time. In that case your only option is a 3rd row seat. While I personally favor the wagons because they're easier to drive, park, wash, cheaper to own and better built but the minivans have come a long way. The new Toyota Sienna (or honda Oddesy) is probably the nicest family car you could ask for and with seats folded it'll swallow full 4x8 sheets of plywood!! No you wouldn't catch me driving one but then I'm not planning to have more than 2 kids

On the other hand I could be bribed into driving a cool wagon, there are some very nice ones on the market today. Some of the larger ones include the Mazda 6, Dodge Magnum, Audi A6/R6, Mercedes wagon, Jetta/Passat wagon, of course Volvo has a few.

[PrincessPerky]

Actually you can fit three car seats in the back of my saturn . (we tested it, have to do it when BBY3 is here)

DH likes the magnum I think, but it doesn't come with a third row seat, hopefully that is a yet, since he likes it. Havn't looked at the rest myself, but htanks for the list. not being a car person I had no idea where to start.

[mccartygirl]

I personally don't think the Expedition/Yukon/Tahoe is a normal sized SUV. I live in Metro Detroit and there are more Envoys/Explorers/Trailblazers/4Runners than the bigger sister SUVs. As an SUV driver I knew that when I bought it I'd pay more in gas, it's something I didn't mind. I used to have a Grand Am, both my husband and I had one and we loved them. But after seeing a Dodge Ram grill coming at me, it's grill at my eye level, I traded it in for an SUV. I will not go back to a car. I am safer in my Envoy XL than in a little car like a Gr Am. SUVs have come quite a ways when it comes to rollover issues. Not to mention, the driver needs to take some accountability when it tips and we all know about the tire situation. I know very well that if I make a sudden jerky move I take the rollover risk. My Envoy isn't as top heavy as my Jimmy was. We originally got the SuV because of the Ram incident and because of camping. We haul a lot of stuff for camping and it would never fit into a car. Moved up to the XL because we got more camping equip. When husband's lease is up on his car, which our daughter rarely rides in because I'm scared to death in it, we're getting a Yukon. We do fixes on our house but don't really haul things other than camping equip and such. I joked about a Hummer because it is bigger and I'd feel safer. I was glad someone pointed out that there are wagons out there now. Saturn used to have a wagon, don't know if they do now. And, according to insurance - SUVs are considered station wagons, just a silly side note. I know that a mini-van would be better gas mileage and has a little more storage space but I just can't get into that mindset. I can't stand those things, but see me when I'm in my 50's . . . Princess Perky, I'm not sure how old your kids are and I know you have 1 on the way but I assume your Saturn is about the same size as our mid-size, not sure how you fit 3 carseats in there unless 1 of them is a booster. We have the Britax carseat and there is no way we could fit 2 other carseats in there without the kids smacking each other all the time. We only have 1 kid so I'm just guessing they'd fight in the back like my brother and I did Now, if I lived on the Big Island, with no snow and very few SUVs, I'd be driving a comvertible A6!

[byusteeler]

I know 2 of my friends bought Chevy suburbans in the past month. I just think OUCH everytime I go to the gas station in my car and it averages 30 mpg. I can't imagine what they think at the pump. I drive a toyota though and employee pricing or not I think it has been worth every penny. I bought it new in 1998 and it has over 160,000 miles without a bit of trouble. ( I know what everyone says about buying new, but we didn't pay anywhere near MSRP and I did the breaking in and know all the maintenance has been kept up on. I think the overall peace of mind was worth the loss you may take on driving a new car off the lot. ) We have owned GM, Chrysler and Ford without the same good fortune. Employee pricing would not encourage me to buy them. I do have 1 friend that really does need a suburban or equivelent she has 7 children.

[BAGAGT1]

Originally Posted by byusteeler

We have owned GM, Chrysler and Ford without the same good fortune. Employee pricing would not encourage me to buy them. I do have 1 friend that really does need a suburban or equivelent she has 7 children.

I have had the exact opposite experience, I have owned a ford, toyota, and two Pontiacs. The Toyota was the worst vehicle I have owned I still own one both of the Pontiacs, with the oldest being a 1993 with a 162,000 miles on it. Runs like a charm. My biggest issue with Toyota's and Honda's are that most dealers aren't very competive price was compared to other makes.

[PrincessPerky]

mccartygirl,
Yeah DS is 3 and his is actually a booster, DD has a slimmer than average car seat (it will not convert to a booster) and our infant seat is just an infant seat (only rear facing) no base, all of that helps it all fit. barely.

[DivaJen]

Originally Posted by Russell

On the other hand I could be bribed into driving a cool wagon, there are some very nice ones on the market today. Some of the larger ones include the Mazda 6, Dodge Magnum, Audi A6/R6, Mercedes wagon, Jetta/Passat wagon, of course Volvo has a few.

I love our Passat wagon, though it won't hold more than two car or booster seats in the back. I wish it would - might make carpooling easier this year. I can take one more kid, for a total of two in back (DD plus one other), but if the child has a sibling then I'm out of luck.

We've had the passat for about six years now, and it's been a pretty good car.

[CRFSaver]

Originally Posted by VJW

Despite GM's losses in the first and second quarters of this year, it still has about $20 BILLION in cash reserves. Labor costs account for only 15 percent to 20 percent of the cost of a car, and GM's recent sales promotion, which offered consumers the same discount as employees, cost much more than GM’s annual healthcare costs.

#

Are you including GMAC's income in regards to labor as a percentage of the cost of a vehicle? I believe the percentage would be a lot higher if you took out GMAC's income where labor is working on anything but building cars (insurance, commercial mortgages, real estate mortgage, Ditec.com)