Iraq Pays 5 cents A Gallon For Gas

[terry1156]

I found this interesting from <A HREF="http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8C1NA781.htm?campaign_id=apn_home_down&chan=db">b usinessweek.com</A>

"Motorists struggling with high gas prices in the United States and Europe may be surprised to learn that consumers in Iraq pay as little as 5 cents a gallon, according to the International Monetary Fund's first assessment of the Iraqi economy in 25 years.

Thanks to generous government subsidies on petroleum products -- which the IMF criticized as a threat to the country's fragile economy -- Iraq has some of the cheapest gas in the world.

By contrast, Americans pay about $2.55 a gallon and Britons pay $6.24. Iraqis also pay much less for a gallon of regular gasoline than in nearby countries such as Iran (38 cents), Jordan ($1.89) and Syria ($1.74)."

[Bruce Wayne]

If you believe the peak oil people we're going to reach peak oil production in 10-15 years anyway. I was sitting in on an interview yesterday with a professor of geology and ceo of an oil exploration company and we better start looking for alternatives to oil sharpish as things aren't going to be getting better.

[CRFSaver]

You would think municpalities would push more use of public transportation. Unfortunately they raise it to a price (in many places) where it is cheaper to drive to work.

[cercis]

And muncipalities choose to make it hard to use. They make the hours impossible to use with a full time job and they make the routes so long you end up riding in a bus for over an hour to go 10 miles.

[Fern]

In response to Bruce's note, I read more recently that they're already forecasting we won't have enough time...years... to develop viable alternative technologies before the gas/fossil fuel crunch hits crisis proportions. It can't be done overnight.

We're going to pay the piper for years of successive indifference from American presidency.

I really have no pity for SUV drivers. Would seem hard to justify buying one unless you have an exceptionally large family.

[Bruce Wayne]

Whilst its fair that governments around the world have fudged this issue I don't think the buck should stop at anyone but us individuals. There is an awful lot of information out there regarding the environmental problems we face. It's ultimately up to us the choices we make.

[Fern]

Well, this brings me back to that troublesome old question, what can we do as individuals? I can make lots of small changes in my own life to conserve, recycle and consume less, but ultimately, I'm just one person.

To have any impact, changes have to come from the top and establish rules and laws requiring, not asking, people to change their consumption habits.

[Bruce Wayne]

All any of us can do is act as individuals. Whether we like it or not, oil is running out. The foresighted amongst us are making changes so that when this time comes we'll be prepared. If others choose not to do this then so be it, this is their choice.

The same is true of companies. The intelligent ones that rely on oil will already be looking to substitutes. Too much money is at stake for them to be unprepared.

This is the only way change will come and it is so because each of us puts themselves first. Whereas governments have to reach consensus and achieve compromise, the individual ultimately has to please just one person.

I strongly believe that society (as with nature itself) is organised from the bottom up. There should be no one controlling force, no grand master moving us around like pawns on a chess board, because unlike pieces on a chess board we don't exist to be manouvered by a president or prime minister. We are each born onto this planet as individuals, unique to this earth and it is by being selfish that the answer will be found.

One day people will start choosing alternatives to oil because it's too expensive or too scarce. One day companies will start relying on other resources for their production or transportation because it is too expensive or too scarce. When this time comes the force of change will be unlike anything any government will ever be able to engender.

So never think that as an individual you can do nothing, because you as an individual are the most important person in your world. By doing the best that you can do you are already doing the right thing by society.

[cercis]

As individuals it is extremely hard to effect change in the US. I want a hybrid car. But I can't get one. Why? Because they are too expensive and because they are too scarce. However, since I technically have a business, I could go out tomorrow and buy an SUV and be able to easily afford it.

That's an example of something our government has done that makes it more difficult to choose the envirnomental option.

Also, the gov't refuses to increase CAFE standards. As an individual I can't convice a company to increase their fuel efficiency. I can ask and ask and ask and get my friends to ask too (and we've done that) but unless a company can KNOW they will benefit from a change, they won't do it unless they are forced.

Companies in the US are crippled by inertia. They are terrified to make changes, even when (or maybe especially when) the consumers ask/demand it. They've been burned by listening to requests and demands and spent money making changes only to lose money. Vehicle manufacturers are not going to release an appreciably larger number of fuel efficient vehicles until they are forced to.

Our prez has also actively reduced funding to study alternative fuel sources. He has retracted grants which had been used to study biodiesel, etc. There isn't a private group organized well enough to make up for those grants (we're trying, but none of us know the first thing about this type of endeavor).

[Bruce Wayne]

As individuals it is extremely hard to effect change in the US. I want a hybrid car. But I can't get one. Why? Because they are too expensive and because they are too scarce. However, since I technically have a business, I could go out tomorrow and buy an SUV and be able to easily afford it.

Thats an excuse for not doing anything. You can use your existing vehicle more efficiently, you can use it less often (you can even not use it at all). These are all steps you can make as an individual. Why do you want to change how other people live their lives?

Also, the gov't refuses to increase CAFE standards. As an individual I can't convice a company to increase their fuel efficiency. I can ask and ask and ask and get my friends to ask too (and we've done that) but unless a company can KNOW they will benefit from a change, they won't do it unless they are forced.

Once again, you think for yourself and let the company think for itself. There will come a time when fuel becomes an enormous expense and with oil prices rising all the time it is making renewable energy more and more viable.

Our prez has also actively reduced funding to study alternative fuel sources. He has retracted grants which had been used to study biodiesel, etc. There isn't a private group organized well enough to make up for those grants (we're trying, but none of us know the first thing about this type of endeavor).

The likes of GE and the oil majors are spending billions on renewable energy research because that's their business.

[cercis]

I have done all I can as an individual. I drive about 10 miles/day and that's as much as I can cut it without sacrificing safety too much (in order to carpool I'd have to move my kids out of their safety seats and that's not feasible).

But, I need better technology to do more. I could effectively cut my gasoline usage in half with a hybrid vehicle (I get poor gas mileage because I drive in the city and it's a lot of stop and go) but you can't find a hybrid for love or money right now. The used hybrids are selling for more than their cost new.

GE is looking into renewable energy? Where? In the US all they're doing is promoting coal (which last I looked was not renewable). When the state gov'ts insist upon renewable electricity they grudgingly add wind power (and it is grudgingly and they do the bare minimum and then charge a 20% premium for that power).

You would think the companies would be looking into alternative sources, but if they are they are keeping it extremely close to the chest. I belong to several ecowatch groups and we've not been able to get any good news from a company. Most of them have said they are slashing those departments to funnel more money to operating expenses related to the increased cost of fuel.

In the US we don't see change until our gov't steps up and insists.

I belong to the groups I belong to so I can do all I can as an individual and in the collective. But we've done all we can. We're on the precipice of being seen as "extreme" and dismissed. My friends have flat out told me that they won't listen to me because I "just don't understand".

You can say it's a copout. That's fine. You can even say I'm not doing all I can because I still drive. That's fine.

But you are wrong to think that what companies do doesn't affect me. I need more technology to do more, but they won't produce it without a push from the gov't. That's the facts in the US.

[baselle]

Originally Posted by cercis

I need more technology to do more, but they won't produce it without a push from the gov't. That's the facts in the US.

I'm not trying to pick on you, cersis, but this is a very American response. Look from without when a piece of the solution is going to have to come from within. I am well aware of the fact most of the American govt is held in thrall of big energy.

I don't know where most of you live, I'll just tell you what I see in Seattle:

1. Relatively cheap, dependable transit (they print the schedules and routes, for g*ds sake), albeit buses on surface streets. Light commuter rail from Everett (20 mi north of Seattle) to Tacoma (50 mi south of Seattle). Some of the bus fleet is being upgraded to electric and hybrid technologies.
2. Bus fare is $1.25 - 1.75 per trip; you can get a monthly pass card for $54, good for unlimited rides during that month.
3. Most companies get a tax break from the state if they can get a certain % of their staff riding public transportation, so many companies get breaks on bus passes which makes them even cheaper. My bus pass card costs me $27.
4. A Flexcar car rental system, with nearly 100 cars (some hybrids) to rent at 10$/hr, which includes gas, for situations where you need a car.
5. Insane parking lot fees in the downtown area (15$/day).

And still Seattle ranks as one of the top 5 worst traffic areas in the United States, with interstates and main arterials parking lots, and nearly day-long rush hours.

How insane is this?

I can only conclude that most Seattleites, who have supposedly "higher ideals" and where public transportation is a complete no-brainer, are absolutely addicted to gas and the so-called freedom of a car. Substitute the word "alcohol" for "gas" in this thread, and we all sound like addicts, going through withdrawl, looking for another fix.

[cercis]

I know that is true for many people and it irks the **** out of me. However, I live in an area with no public transporation. You can get a bus to go from city to city, but no transportation within those cities (I'm not sure what people do, take a taxi?).

I lived in Oklahoma City for 4 years. For one year I lived in a community within Oklahoma City (The Village for those that know the area). Busses did not come within that community. I lived in the heart of the area, so I would have had to walk 2 miles to a bus stop (on roads with no sidewalks). Then we moved to a different part of the city. I was a little closer to the bus stop, now it was only about 1 mile, still on roads with no sidewalks. I thought "well, that could still be doable, it's not that hot in the mornings" so I contacted the bus company for schedules. They sent me this incomprehensible list of starts and stops, etc. So I emailed and asked if they could plot my route to go from x to y (y being on a very busy street about half a block from a public libary). I would have to change busses mid point - which included walking several blocks to the next bus stop and then walk along this majorly busy street (NW Highway for those that live there) for a mile or more. I thought this must be a mistake, surely they have a drop off at the library so I emailed them back. Nope, no mistake. Fine. So how long was the ride? 1.5 hours. And the earliest I could be dropped at the end point (with the bus schedules) was 8:15. So I would already be 15 minutes late to work and still have to walk a mile (and did I mention, no sidewalks and really, really high weeds?) before I got there. My bosses were anal about time. We had to clock in every day and if you were more than 3 minutes late you were written up and if it happened 5 times you were dismissed. No exceptions.

I wanted to move to Austin, where the PT is usable, but that didn't work out. So we moved to another area with no usable PT. It sucks, but you have to have a job and when you have a limited job field, you go where the jobs are.

So, I look for other ways to save energy. I buy organic foods when possible and local foods otherwise. I still occasionally have to buy conventional, non-local foods, but I do my best. I keep my AC at 84-87 (that's not a typo) and only ran the heat once last year. I use only CF bulbs and make sure they are turned off as much as possible. I buy energy star appliances. I keep the blinds closed in my house to keep the sun out. I grow what food I can but only those things that can grow in our climate with no major care or energy input. I carefully plot my drive to work and school to try to find the shortest way with the least amount of stops (since stop and go is the problem for my car).

I act as an evangelist for my lifestyle. I'm constantly telling people the benefits of living like this (for instance, if you keep your AC high, you aren't reluctant to go outside and exercise and play). I'm constantly writing to my local grocers to request more local and organic foods. I'm constantly telling people how much better for you local and organic foods are. I'm on the point of being annoying. And it's sad, but I've done all I can as an individual. I need more help. I need my freaking landlady to help by buying energy star appliances for the ones I don't provide (stove, dishwasher, water heater), to insulate the home better and to provide window screens so we can open the windows and enjoy the cooler night temps. I need my city to provide public transportation. I drive 10 miles/day, that's round trip dropping the kids off at school, to work, picking the kids up and back home.

In other words, I'm one person. Period. I deal with people daily who say "the government knows what they're doing, if it were a problem, they'd provide legislation about it." They aren't going to do anything until the gov't steps up. Scary.

[baselle]

I feel for you, cersis. Both Tucson, AZ and Raleigh, NC were/probably are exactly the same way. Awful, stupid, useless mass transit in both places, and I had to have a car in each place.

[cercis]

Too many of our cities are this way.

In OK when money came available they chose to put it toward road construction/repair rather than toward public transportation. They figured there was no desire for PT because people weren't using it (they just couldn't see that people weren't using it because they couldn't make it work because of lack of bus routes).

I thought of something else I do. I use a manual mower - as in a reel mower. I also use a craftsman brand manual weed whacker. Mowers and weed whackers (and leaf/snow blowers) are incredibly inefficient and pollute horribly. We have a small lot, so it works fine. But in OKC we had .5 acres and still used these items.

[Fern]

Bruce, your views are interesting, but me thinks we have a
fundamentally different way of thinking.

You say "All any of us can do is act as individuals."

I disagree. Yes, we should not passively throw up our hands and wait
for Big Brother to solve our problems, but if we waited til every
individiual had a life changing experience and "saw the light," we'd never
get where we want to go. Individuals frequently push the govt toward the
direction that society is moving in (many social movements started this
way), so any way we can influence government, thru letter writing,
calling our Congressman (or members of Parliament) or more involved
political activites can help.

Trusting corporate America to do the right thing and conserve would be
a foolish choice. Time and again we've seen corporate scandals that
show how greed and personal gain is what drives most of corporate America.
Not all, but most. So we need governmental regulation to enforce
pollution controls, more effective energy use, etc.

You say, "We are each born onto this planet as individuals,
unique to this earth and it is by being selfish that the answer will be
found."

We are individuals, Bruce, but like it or not, Man is a highly social
creature, and we could not survive outside of groups...our families, our
neighborhoods, the communities within which we live, our nations.
Decisions and actions should be made based on cooperation and consensus, not
individual, selfish attitudes. That is a recipe for anarchy.

[Bruce Wayne]

Yeah, I should have probably made myself a bit clearer.

I wasn't suggesting that man should be an Island, devoid of contact with others etc. but merely that I think people would be well served to follow their own instincts and beliefs rather than those of the crowd.

I study the environmental issues alot and I really don't think any of the government measures will encourage people to change their lives because each individual doesn't see the need to change their lives. Change will happen on a mass scale when, for instance, oil becomes so scarce that the price is astronomical (that's if oil isn't rationed or something before then)

[cercis]

But the companies will be lagging behind the public. That's the way companies in the US work. That's why in the 70s imports gained such a huge market share.

We need the gov't to push those companies into making changes now because it will be too late when we've reached the tipping point.

And what those companies do does affect me. I have to breath the air that is tainted by the increased emissions from the increased fuel usage. I have to drink the water that is tainted by emissions. I have to eat the food that is grown in soil contaminated by emissions. Etc, etc, etc.

Corporations love that their true costs are spread out among the populace while the gains are concentrated. Pollution is a major cost of doing business, but it's rarely the business that pays to clean it up.

[Bruce Wayne]

The US government published the Hirsch report on peak oil this year and it has barely registered a mumour, despite the possible consequences surpassing climate change and third world debt combined.

[pennywise]

Bruce is correct! Yes we are social and live in groups, but analyze the groups. You are an island in a group of islands. If you followed the crowd you'd be in debt, not looking to free yourself from slavery. If you followed the crowd you would not have any savings. So we are alone in our quest. So all of us alone's can do something individually and the rest will see us walking, riding our bicycles and follow if they wish. The reserves have been increasing. We are not a selfish lot, whereas our group is selfish because they are now pulling out the credit cards to pay for the gas (in wall street journal this A.M.). Debt for gas. I would not advise public transportation, folks - this is what they want and why they are forcing gas up. Can't attack us unless there is mass transportation to put suicide bombers on! Suggest we follow Bruce in his advice and individually look to our own solution. I just saw ads for scooters, reasonable price. Would be good in warmer states. I need a very low cost enclosed mode of transportation to get the daughter back and forth to school. Time is an issue too since I am now carrying 14 credits at the Master level. I need to study, study, study! Lets come up with our ideas and pool them as we have and we will solve this outrageous raping of our piggy banks.