Using your neighbors wireless service

terry1156 · #1 (**permalink**) 08-10-2005, 09:32 PM

I just finished reading an interesting article at money.com called <A HREF="http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/08/technology/personaltech/internet_piracy/index.htm">Stealing your neighbor's Net</A> about whether it is ethical and legal to get your Interent service for free by piggy-backing on your neighbor's wireless service.

Do you think this is a legitimate way to get high speed Internet access for free or is it simply stealing?

Tree0164 · #2 (**permalink**) 08-11-2005, 12:57 AM

I think that it is stealing.

We got our wireless service password protected.

Bruce Wayne · #3 (**permalink**) 08-11-2005, 01:33 AM

I don't think its ethical at all. ADSL isn't expensive so there is no excuse for not paying your own way.

akaivyleaf · #4 (**permalink**) 08-11-2005, 05:07 AM

If your neighbor consents, then what you're doing is unethical, but I wouldn't call it stealing. If your neighbor doesn't know, you're stealing. The provider is going to call it stealing either way... You should just get your own.

jmjj215 · #5 (**permalink**) 08-11-2005, 08:22 AM

To ensure your wireless isn't being stolen, it should only serve the MAC(s) on your computer(s) network interface cards. It's a simple setup.

CRFSaver · #6 (**permalink**) 08-11-2005, 10:12 AM

Some people I know keep theirs open for anyone to use (with a firewall between their server and other computers). Depending on your provider it is illegal to share your open connection. Some providers dont care (Speakeasy?). Only thing you have to worry about with an open connection is someone downloading kiddy Pron on your connection. Even just using a WEP connection will protect you some.

BAGAGT1 · #7 (**permalink**) 08-11-2005, 11:07 AM

In my opinion it is not stealing, and may not be unethical if you do not abuse it. For example, if you only use it to browse web pages (as opposed to downloading illegal music and movies or using it for other malicious purposes) then I don't see the harm. It would be the equivalent to me leaving my porch light on, and my neighbor sitting outside on his porch reading a book using my light instead of his own. If you feel that it is stealing, then by all means lock your connection down, so no one can use it. I myself keep my connection locked down, but I have several neighbors who don't.

Just my two cents, but I don't understand what all the hype is about.

gakline · #8 (**permalink**) 08-12-2005, 12:29 PM

I totally agree with Bagat1. I, personally, borrow my neighbor's wireless. They know about it and I pay them. They have a secure network, so I wouldn't be able to get on without their permission. Others in my neighborhood have unsecure connections and I could use their's if I wanted.

Russell · #9 (**permalink**) 08-12-2005, 02:37 PM

BAGAGT1 hit it on the nail.

If you don't want others using your connection then all you have to do is to lock it down. There are many ways of doing it, WEP, WPA PSK, WPA EAS, Mac Filtering etc etc

I used my neighbors connection all the time when I didn't have my own hookup. I still use theirs because we have about 9-10 networks in my apt complex some of which have a much stronger signal than mine even when I sit 5 feet away from my own router. Sometimes I wonder why even have my own connection when I can't even connect to it half the time, wirelessly anyway.

jmjj215 · #10 (**permalink**) 08-15-2005, 08:05 AM

How do you resolve the issue of not paying the provider for the service you are getting? Two neighbors are using it, but the provider is only be paid for one user.

gakline · #11 (**permalink**) 08-15-2005, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmjj215

How do you resolve the issue of not paying the provider for the service you are getting? Two neighbors are using it, but the provider is only be paid for one user.

Maybe I'm confused, but that is the point, to not pay the provider. The one user is paying full price and the provider has no way of knowing how many people are using it that don't live in the household.

BCompDude · #12 (**permalink**) 08-15-2005, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell

BAGAGT1 hit it on the nail.

If you don't want others using your connection then all you have to do is to lock it down. There are many ways of doing it, WEP, WPA PSK, WPA EAS, Mac Filtering etc etc

I used my neighbors connection all the time when I didn't have my own hookup. I still use theirs because we have about 9-10 networks in my apt complex some of which have a much stronger signal than mine even when I sit 5 feet away from my own router. Sometimes I wonder why even have my own connection when I can't even connect to it half the time, wirelessly anyway.

If I don't want others using my house or garage then all I have to do is lock it down. What if I don't? Its ok to come into my house or garage simply because I didn't lock it down? Ha. Excuses to justify the means.

If the other people know about it, fine. But if they don't, you are STEALING their bandwith, of which there is a FINITE amount, not INFINITE. Thats a big differentiation.

It is their service they pay for and just because they don't lock it down--for whatever reason--does not justify using it. What a slippery slope that leads down. . . .

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds...ap2126874.html

Hopefully it leads to jailtime.

Russell · #13 (**permalink**) 08-15-2005, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCompDude

If I don't want others using my house or garage then all I have to do is lock it down. What if I don't? Its ok to come into my house or garage simply because I didn't lock it down? Ha. Excuses to justify the means.

If the other people know about it, fine. But if they don't, you are STEALING their bandwith, of which there is a FINITE amount, not INFINITE. Thats a big differentiation.

It is their service they pay for and just because they don't lock it down--for whatever reason--does not justify using it. What a slippery slope that leads down. . . .

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds...ap2126874.html

Hopefully it leads to jailtime.

OK, if you don't understand the wireless technology and risks involved with letting others use your connection you *must* enable security on that connection. If you broadcast your SSID and your connection is not protected that's equivalent of posting a big sign that says FREE Internet Connection!!

BcompDude, I would agree with you if you posted your reply in regard to network security. There are many risks associated with open/unmonitored wireless connections. Other people can use your connection to do illegal stuff and then disappear without a trace. This would be equivalent of someone running a crack-house out of your garage and then taking off just before the police arrives.

However, aside from the security aspect, come on people its just a darn link to 'net. Heck, every cafe, airport, restaurant, bookstore in town has free wireless access. My own wireless is open for anyone to use, but if I see they're abusing it or doing something illegal I'll turn their access off, its no big deal - but I haven't had to do this in 3 years now. In general I would suggest locking up your connection unless you have the means to monitor others' activities.

I certainly hope you mean that bandwidth is finite only while the connection is being saturated. Its not finite like you will run out of it completely or will have to overpay. No DSL/cable provider I know charges by the data tranfer.

BAGAGT1 · #14 (**permalink**) 08-15-2005, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCompDude

If I don't want others using my house or garage then all I have to do is lock it down. What if I don't? Its ok to come into my house or garage simply because I didn't lock it down? Ha. Excuses to justify the means.

Disagree, which is why I specifically used the analogy of the porch light, and not a house or car. You see, there is no way of preventing the light waves from traveling in an infinite number of directions, therefore if my neighbor wants to read his book using my light, the only option I have to prevent this is to turn off the light.

When you use a wireless conncetion, you are broadcasting* your internet connection in an infinite number of directions (much like the light bulb). Unlike the light, the radio waves can penetrate through walls (kind of like trespassing into my home...hmmmm). But unlike the lightbulb, I do have tools at my disposal to prevent others from using my internet connection.

I stand by my earlier post, if you don't lock your connection, I don't have to do much to pick up your connection. As a matter of fact, if there is only one open signal in the area, my wireless card will connect to it automatically. In my neighborhood, I have to prevent my wireless card from connecting to my next door neighbors conncetion, because since his connection is open, and my connection is not, my card will connect to my neighbors connection before it will connect to my own.

Broadcast (as defined by dictionary.com):

To transmit a radio or television program for public or general use.
To be on the air: The station begins broadcasting at 6 A.M.
To participate in a radio or television program.
To send a transmission or signal; transmit.

pennywise · #15 (**permalink**) 08-16-2005, 06:36 AM

Folks, I have a problem with some of this. Read all please. I recently asked someone if I walked into a store and took a pack of gum and walked out did I steal? Yes. Followed with I was at work and it is 5:00 and my boss wanted me to stay over 10 minutes unpaid to finish a job, did he steal? It is interesting how people think. An employer steals all the time - when you take someones time or idea without paying for it you steal. Just because someone is on your premises and comes up with an idea does not mean you own it. The phone lines and satellites have been paid for my the taxpayers, yet look at the charges and monies the CEO's are making. Who is doing the stealing? I suggest you do secure yourself from potential crimes, however, if a crime is committed on your internet it is up to the police and internet company to find the real perpetrator.

jmjj215 · #16 (**permalink**) 08-16-2005, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gakline

Maybe I'm confused, but that is the point, to not pay the provider. The one user is paying full price and the provider has no way of knowing how many people are using it that don't live in the household.

Yes - that's my point as well. You're not paying the provider for a service. Whether your neighbor agrees to it or not, I don't think it's honest to steal from the provider. (And I don't care how much the CEO of the provider makes in regards to this question)

pennywise · #17 (**permalink**) 08-16-2005, 06:59 AM

The point is: hasn't the CEO stolen from you when you paid taxes to build the structure and he charges you for that structure building. No way, lower the prices, cut the salaries, when they stop stealing I will consider my thinking. A CEO is not worth anymore than the average salary, no one is. If you can afford to pay your employee 40,000/year then you make 40,000/year. if there is more all get a bonus the equivalent %. The benefits are the same for all and no-one gets company paid for cars, newspapers, etc. unless all employees do. If your very profitable, more people will want to work for you. If your company is not profitable then you will go bankrupt as you should.

BCompDude · #18 (**permalink**) 08-16-2005, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pennywise

The point is: hasn't the CEO stolen from you when you paid taxes to build the structure and he charges you for that structure building. No way, lower the prices, cut the salaries, when they stop stealing I will consider my thinking. A CEO is not worth anymore than the average salary, no one is. If you can afford to pay your employee 40,000/year then you make 40,000/year. if there is more all get a bonus the equivalent %. The benefits are the same for all and no-one gets company paid for cars, newspapers, etc. unless all employees do. If your very profitable, more people will want to work for you. If your company is not profitable then you will go bankrupt as you should.

I hope you realize that most companies that you purchase products or services from have CEO's. . .your argument really has no validity. I can choose not to purchase the CEO's companies' services and/or products if I feel that he makes too much money and it bothers me that much. And a CEO (a GOOD CEO) is worth MUCH more than an average employee. Your theology sounds like everyone should get paid the same no matter what they do or what responsibilites they have. . .sounds socialist to me. At least thats what it sounds like from my perspective.

Russell · #19 (**permalink**) 08-16-2005, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmjj215

Yes - that's my point as well. You're not paying the provider for a service. Whether your neighbor agrees to it or not, I don't think it's honest to steal from the provider. (And I don't care how much the CEO of the provider makes in regards to this question)

It doesn't work that way. Your provider has given you a specific bandwidth for that connection. You can't go over it because of the limits set on your connection by your provider.

Its just like a 56k modem, if that helps you understand it. No matter how many people you put behind that 56k modem you're limited by the data it can move per second. If you put 20 people on a single connection vs. 2 people its still moving the data at the same speed. The amount of data transfer however is *probably higher but no broadband ISP I know charges by the amount of data transfer per month.

*probably: I say probably above because it all depends on how you use the connection. If you're simply browsing this forum vs another customer of your ISP who's downloading movies all day long, surely his data transfer is *much more* than yours, however, you pay the same amount of money as him.

Bottomline: sharing a broadband connection in general doesn't cost you or your provider anything extra. Is it wrong ? yes only if you secure your connection and I hack into it anyway. But not if its broadcasted to my computer and there's no way of me knowing you don't want it to be used.

Russell · #20 (**permalink**) 08-16-2005, 11:57 AM

Free wireless connections are all over and they're meant to be used that way. They are called "hot spots". Do a google on it and you'll see what I mean.

So, how do I know that the unsecured wireless connection broadcasted to my computer is not a hot spot ? Did you say it was not for use by general public ? Did you secure it so the general public couldn't use it ? If not, then I have no way of differentiating if your connection is a "hot-spot" or not and I'll assume it is since they're all over the place these days.

I've been in the networking and computers field since 1993 and I'm sad to see that so many of us using the Internet today could have such backward thinking. If we all thought like this 10 years ago we wouldn't have the high speed connections to the Internet or the Internet itself. It was all about making it easier and user friendly so everyone could have access to the Internet despite the fact that a lot of people raised skepticism about giving everyone highspeed access to the 'net.

In the next 10 yrs Internet connection will be free everywhere. The DSL prices have come down from $70/mo to $14.95/mo in just the last 4 years.