The Cure is not "Mo' Jobs"

[Scanner]

FROM ANOTHER THREAD:

The cure is pretty simple, we need jobs.

I don't think it's that simple.

I am not normally a quoter of "Motivational Gurus" but I think what is happening is a propagation of ignorance of how our world is changing. The Government is failing to educate Americans on what to do.

They just wait in employment lines or post resume's to monster dot com or whatever.

Stephen Covey spoke of how we are not in the Age of Industrialism anymore, that we can't expect (nor will I train my kids) to operate on a "para-dig-em" that you go out and sell your labor on the job market.

That will work for medical doctors and a few other niched professionals. That's about it.

That's not to say all jobs are going to end and there will never be jobs again and we are all going to be self-employed. There is always going to be a need for labor and a need for capitalists to capitalize upon the labor.

It's just that this expectation that Obama or Perry or whomever can "Create Jobs" is false. That was in the 20's to 80's - selling your labor on the open market.

I think Stephen Covey is right - you have to develop a "knowledge niche" - even if you are a waiter - you are a waiter that specializes in serving Asian food or whatever (okay, that's extreme but there could be something in the culinary arts that you may study - maybe even learn an Asian language - remember, we are globalizing too).

Complicating this, I do think "knowledge" is the answer out, but yet, I think college is not where knowledge lies right now. The answer certainly is no longer a "4 year degree" nor is "Mo' jobs, Mr. President."

I guess it's easy for me to say, since I work 2 jobs but that being said, I do agree with Stephen Covey.

[maat55]

I find it laughable that everyone in Congress claims that jobs should be their first priority. Yet, they are not doing one thing to get out of the way of the private sector.

The expedient way to grow jobs is to deregulate and lower investment/production taxes. This administration has done nothing but further increase the barriers. Why are we not drilling for oil and building new coal plants(administration wanted cap&tax, promised to regulate new coal plants into bankruptcy)? Why are we not building new refineries? Why is it that Boeing cannot build a plant in North Charlestown?

With minimum wage laws, workers comp, unemployment taxes and benefits, excessive OSHA and EPA, Obamacare, high corporate taxes etc., how are we supposed compete and create jobs?

[LuckyRobin]

Originally Posted by maat55

Why are we not drilling for oil and building new coal plants(administration wanted cap&tax, promised to regulate new coal plants into bankruptcy)? Why are we not building new refineries? Why is it that Boeing cannot build a plant in North Charlestown?

I don't know the answers to most of those questions, but we are drilling for oil. My husband works in the industry and he is nearly a year into a five year construction plan building the infrastructure for more drilling. This is not particularly advertized, but they are majorly gearing up right now, as well as drilling two exploratory wells and figuring out easier ways to get oil out of shale deposits.

[Scanner]

Maat,

As a small job creator myself, I do agree with you that simplifying anything will help, but not be the ultimate decider. I would also say let's try to make capitalizing on our natual resources a bit easier.

First of all, you have to realize something (and I know you hate Obama but honestly bear with me here) - the job growth we have had has been ALLLLLLL private sector. The Obama Administration hasn't done that bad of a job in creating an environment for private sector jobs. The statistics play this out.

Now, why the high unemployment then? Well, economists state what is unique about this "reoovery" is there hasn't been a commensurate hiring in government. Now, you or I may agree with that or disagree with that (I think it is probably a good thing). It's just at this point, we'd be hiring more police, firefighters and teachers and we are not as a society.

So, what's the ultimate in job creation? I have to say, I farm out my payroll and when I decide to hire (and I have talk to other "job creators") it isn't so much the complex tax code. I found a local payroll service who does everything for $12/paycheck and $25/quarter so I just estimate those costs in there. Labor is a deduction.

So what makes me "hire" employees or vendors? Consumption, Maat.

You could give me the whoppingest tax break ever and I am not going to hire if people aren't consuming my services (or goods).

I am not sure what the total answer is to get people "consuming", if even if that is a good thing in a Post-Industrial age, maybe we all have to start envisioning a different life, but I just want to see this country get off this dysfunctional thinking that Tax Break = Jobs.

It doesn't.

Maybe get Americans consuming something else besides food? Maybe Obama was right that our health/healthcare is the biggest drag on the economy and the knuckledragging Neanderthal Tea Partiers were wrong? It ain't good when the incidence of diabetes is projected to double by 2020.

[rj.phila]

i've got a question for you guys who think that there is a causal link btw gov't regulation and "job creation".

can you show me some metrics/statistics that support that causal relationship?

as a small business owner, it just doesnt seem to play out that way in my experience. every business i know of/work with in essence has productivity, or profit margin, as the #1 driving factor behind it.

"
You could give me the whoppingest tax break ever and I am not going to hire if people aren't consuming my services (or goods)." <<<<< this is exactly how things play out in real life, to me.

im hiring freelancers/vendors when i know that there is a clear profit increase that i can't achieve without it. if i get a tax break, im just saving it.

[tripods68]

The problem is the United State no longer make stuff. If we do, we may increase manufacturing jobs in this country. But we have "outsource" all manufacturing plants to Vietnam, China, Philippines, India, Korea, etc I could go on. Americans love to buy "cheap" products so Corporate America can take more profits; hence, create wealth to its shareholders, but paying its workers lousy pays; hence stagnant wages since the late 70s which brings me to my second point. Instead of Congress solving how to incentivize American business on jobs, their narrative is ONLY not tax the rich. Let's create ways to give incentives so small business but at the same, let's focus on Green Energy jobs that makes up .01% of US GDP. If we can increase green jobs by 1% per year, it will not only create jobs, but wealth to a lot of people nonewithstanding increase tax-based along the way. But keep plants here and not be outsource. This is one sector the Republican has overlook but to me (being a finance guy) see more upside than current jobs climate conditions. Rant over!

[Snodog]

Originally Posted by rj.phila

i've got a question for you guys who think that there is a causal link btw gov't regulation and "job creation".

It's just propaganda and lies. Unemployment is a worldwide problem due to low aggregate demand. If high unemployment was only a US problem you could make this case. But it's not so you can't.

[krantcents]

Jobs is only part of the problem! The reason it is getting a lot of political push is if we had high employment the government revenue (taxes) would increase. Therefore, our bedget deficit would go down.

[bjl584]

Originally Posted by Scanner

FROM ANOTHER THREAD:



I don't think it's that simple.

I am not normally a quoter of "Motivational Gurus" but I think what is happening is a propagation of ignorance of how our world is changing. The Government is failing to educate Americans on what to do.

They just wait in employment lines or post resume's to monster dot com or whatever.

Stephen Covey spoke of how we are not in the Age of Industrialism anymore, that we can't expect (nor will I train my kids) to operate on a "para-dig-em" that you go out and sell your labor on the job market.

That will work for medical doctors and a few other niched professionals. That's about it.

That's not to say all jobs are going to end and there will never be jobs again and we are all going to be self-employed. There is always going to be a need for labor and a need for capitalists to capitalize upon the labor.

It's just that this expectation that Obama or Perry or whomever can "Create Jobs" is false. That was in the 20's to 80's - selling your labor on the open market.

I think Stephen Covey is right - you have to develop a "knowledge niche" - even if you are a waiter - you are a waiter that specializes in serving Asian food or whatever (okay, that's extreme but there could be something in the culinary arts that you may study - maybe even learn an Asian language - remember, we are globalizing too).

Complicating this, I do think "knowledge" is the answer out, but yet, I think college is not where knowledge lies right now. The answer certainly is no longer a "4 year degree" nor is "Mo' jobs, Mr. President."

I guess it's easy for me to say, since I work 2 jobs but that being said, I do agree with Stephen Covey.

That's an interesting perspective on our current situation. People without marketable skills we are told, are doomed to failure. There probably is more truth to that statement today than any other time in history. I have read several books about building wealth and getting ahead, and one of the common themes in those books was to seperate yourself from the herd by making yourself invaluable to your employer. Obtain knowledge and skills that can not be easily duplicated. Anyone can solder curcuit boards on an assembly line, but it is far harder to outsource someone that has intimate knowledge of a product, is heavily networked, and has earned the respect of their peers and others in the business.

There is another side to this that says that typical labor type jobs will be created someday by way of some yet to be developed product or technology. Think of the auto industry. The invention of the car may have created more jobs and industries than any other invention that man has ever came up with. Cars are the reason that we have a highway system. Technology for engines, tires, plastics, gasoline, steel, etc. are have spun off into countless businesses. The next huge employment engine may be out there. It may just not have been invented yet. 150 years ago, no one was thinking that something called a car would replace a horse, let alone create millions of jobs and businesses around the world.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by rj.phila

i've got a question for you guys who think that there is a causal link btw gov't regulation and "job creation".

can you show me some metrics/statistics that support that causal relationship?

as a small business owner, it just doesnt seem to play out that way in my experience. every business i know of/work with in essence has productivity, or profit margin, as the #1 driving factor behind it.

"
You could give me the whoppingest tax break ever and I am not going to hire if people aren't consuming my services (or goods)." <<<<< this is exactly how things play out in real life, to me.

im hiring freelancers/vendors when i know that there is a clear profit increase that i can't achieve without it. if i get a tax break, im just saving it.

Explain why complete industries are leaving America. Why is it that my Nike shoes are made in Vietnam? Why is it that my TV is made in Asia?

Taxes are just one component in why we are loosing jobs.

[maat55]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Scanner

First of all, you have to realize something (and I know you hate Obama but honestly bear with me here) - the job growth we have had has been ALLLLLLL private sector. The Obama Administration hasn't done that bad of a job in creating an environment for private sector jobs. The statistics play this out.

I'm puzzled, we are not creating enough jobs to keep up with population growth, let alone re-employ those who lost jobs. Added is the fact that many of the created jobs are low level jobs. We are not increasing good production jobs.

Now, why the high unemployment then? Well, economists state what is unique about this "reoovery" is there hasn't been a commensurate hiring in government. Now, you or I may agree with that or disagree with that (I think it is probably a good thing). It's just at this point, we'd be hiring more police, firefighters and teachers and we are not as a society.

We spent billions in the stimulus just to maintain these kind of jobs. Now that there is no more stimulus, they are dropping in numbers. We never had substantial job growth during the Great Depression due to Keynesian stimulus because it does not work. We need more private sector jobs paying taxes to increase government jobs.

So, what's the ultimate in job creation? I have to say, I farm out my payroll and when I decide to hire (and I have talk to other "job creators") it isn't so much the complex tax code. I found a local payroll service who does everything for $12/paycheck and $25/quarter so I just estimate those costs in there. Labor is a deduction.

Use some common sense. Of what benefit to society is it to have people employed counting unnecessary beans? Our rediculous tax structure is causing massive waste in oportunity production, which could lower prices.

So what makes me "hire" employees or vendors? Consumption, Maat.

Guess what makes me consume more? Lower prices. Deflation is the natural cure to unnatural government inflation(housing bubble). You need to read up on the 1920 Depression. You likely never heard of it because it did not last very long, and allowing the private sector economy to readjust on its own led to the roaring 20's.

Depression of 1920–21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You could give me the whoppingest tax break ever and I am not going to hire if people aren't consuming my services (or goods).

Did my post not include much more than tax issues?

I am not sure what the total answer is to get people "consuming", if even if that is a good thing in a Post-Industrial age, maybe we all have to start envisioning a different life, but I just want to see this country get off this dysfunctional thinking that Tax Break = Jobs.

Tax issues are just one component of the problem. During the late 40's, 50's and 60's we had higher taxes, but we also had less competition and much fewer regulations. We are competing in a different world today with far more government red tape.

Maybe get Americans consuming something else besides food? Maybe Obama was right that our health/healthcare is the biggest drag on the economy and the knuckledragging Neanderthal Tea Partiers were wrong? It ain't good when the incidence of diabetes is projected to double by 2020.

The entitlement mindset is the biggest drag on our society. Having a quasi-socialist healthcare system has been a complete failure. Giving more of it to the government will not make it any better. We need reasonable regulation and free market forces.

[rj.phila]

Originally Posted by maat55

Explain why complete industries are leaving America. Why is it that my Nike shoes are made in Vietnam? Why is it that my TV is made in Asia?

Taxes are just one component in why we are loosing jobs.

ok, maat, if this is such a slam dunk issue, then by all means, roll out the stats that show causality. if its so obvious, then this surely it would manifest itself in at least a hearty handful of statistics proving a causal relationship, right?

at a bare minimum, im assuming you've at least got some stats the at least imply a correlation, no?

here's an article stating that the basic wage for-im using YOUR examples here-nike employees in vietnam earn base pay of .$20/hr:

NIKE IN VIETNAM: an eyewitness account

how could we "tax cut" our way down to compete with that?

the last stat i read about corporate america's average tax rate stated it at around 15%. you do realize that's well below the most of the citizen's tiers, right?

[rj.phila]

[quote=maat55;301757]

Tax issues are just one component of the problem. During the late 40's, 50's and 60's we had higher taxes, but we also had less competition and much fewer regulations. We are competing in a different world today with far more government red tape.

can you please point me to documentation of this? links to industries that functioned under less regulation in the 60s than now would be great-thanks.

[Scanner]

Maat,

Agree with Phila - I wouldn't be begging for Nike to return here any time soon if that's all they have to offer - $.20/hour? Are you serious, Maat?

Which to me is the bizarrest aspect of the whole "Let's Not Tax the Nike's of the world" aspect of this philosophy -

Why pander to Nike?

Why are you groveling?

Why are we groveling?

I am not saying we need to necessarily villianize them. But just not grovel. They are trying to find cheap labor - no one can blame them and the Vietnamese will be their slaves. But all the groveling and pandering we seem to do for Big Business on behalf of the Republicans is just simply a bizarre position to take.

I will agree with you that a simplification of tax code would help. It's not the solution, but it would help. I believe the Democrats pushed for closing loopholes though and the REpublicans were dead-set against it.

So what's this about then? Just simply who has power and the GOP is jealous?

I honestly don't believe Boehner ever ran a business. I think it's made up and he's been a politician so long he forgot or he lied about his resume. He sounds like a community organizer or something. He would know that a tax break does not equal jobs. It's either that or like one poster said - just simple, raw propaganda, that the Red States have bought.

[SnoopyCool]

Originally Posted by Scanner

Stephen Covey spoke of how we are not in the Age of Industrialism anymore, that we can't expect (nor will I train my kids) to operate on a "para-dig-em" that you go out and sell your labor on the job market.

This is interesting. Ken Robinson said that public schools still educate as though in the Industrial Revolution.

&#x202a;school kills creativity - ken robinson&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube (5:20 is pretty funny).

Back to taxes and whatnot- this is an interesting paper/study (replete with references):

http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/alesina/files/Large%2Bchanges%2Bin%2Bfiscal%2Bpolicy_October_200 9.pdf

The solution is multifaceted, but lowering taxes is part of it. A better education (not necessarily college) is part of it, too.

[Scanner]

BTW, I am not a total free-thinking Progressive here - I do agree with Conservatives that there is a problem when the lower 50% pay nothing. Everyone needs skin in the game.

It's just that one subject (fair taxation) has little to nothing to do with the other (job creation) and the GOP is unsucessfully trying to muttle the two and it's ending up looking like pandering to the Nike's of the world.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by rj.phila

can you please point me to documentation of this? links to industries that functioned under less regulation in the 60s than now would be great-thanks.

As ammusing as your request is, here goes: The EPA was established in 1970.
United States Environmental Protection Agency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/agmatrix.pdf

OSHA was established in 1970 as well.
Occupational Safety and Health Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Occupational Safety and Health Standards

FUTA 1976.
Federal Unemployment Tax Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Boiler MACT 2010
Understanding the Industrial Boiler MACT Rule

PPACA 2010
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clearly, regulations have increases substantially since the 60's.

[maat55]

[

QUOTE=Scanner;301795]Maat,

Agree with Phila - I wouldn't be begging for Nike to return here any time soon if that's all they have to offer - $.20/hour? Are you serious, Maat?

Nike is just an example. The real problem is that we are competing with countries that do not play on the same field of regulations. We currently get clothing cheap because it is made elsewhere, I have no problem with paying higher prices for having them made here.

I am not saying we need to necessarily villianize them. But just not grovel. They are trying to find cheap labor - no one can blame them and the Vietnamese will be their slaves. But all the groveling and pandering we seem to do for Big Business on behalf of the Republicans is just simply a bizarre position to take.

Having the government replace leaving jobs is not an viable option. It is a waste of time to pander to big business. Businesses just want reasonable regulation and fair competition.

I will agree with you that a simplification of tax code would help. It's not the solution, but it would help. I believe the Democrats pushed for closing loopholes though and the REpublicans were dead-set against it.

The tax code needs to be changed just because it is manipulative and corrupt. It is not the business of government to dictate market forces.

So what's this about then? Just simply who has power and the GOP is jealous?

I see both parties as destructive to freedom and prosperity, I just find liberals to be the worst.

I honestly don't believe Boehner ever ran a business. I think it's made up and he's been a politician so long he forgot or he lied about his resume. He sounds like a community organizer or something. He would know that a tax break does not equal jobs. It's either that or like one poster said - just simple, raw propaganda, that the Red States have bought.

Again, taxes are just one component in a long list of improper government intrusions.

[photo]

Originally Posted by Scanner

You could give me the whoppingest tax break ever and I am not going to hire if people aren't consuming my services (or goods).

I think that's the key to this whole mess. If everyone lived at or below their means, then the goods and services produced would remain a lot more constant. When people spend much more than they should, there will come a time when they no longer can do so; therefore, when the economy tanks (like, now), then companies won't have the demand and businesses have to produce less and lay off people.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by photo

I think that's the key to this whole mess. If everyone lived at or below their means, then the goods and services produced would remain a lot more constant. When people spend much more than they should, there will come a time when they no longer can do so; therefore, when the economy tanks (like, now), then companies won't have the demand and businesses have to produce less and lay off people.

This is an example of why free markets are superior to centrally planned markets. Centrally planned markets attempt to herd cats. It is best to let them go where they want.