money and being happy

[Goldy1]

I just read a recent quote that said when household income gets to 50K(I don't that is very high although relative to cost of living but I could make due on much less) there is not correlation between money and happiness.

[Scanner]

It may have been from me. . .who I was quoting it somewhere else so it's a hearsay thing. . .but I think there's some truth behind it. . .I think that when you reach the "household average" (which is 50K nationally), that your happiness isn't correlated past that.

Now. . .that may be lower in Montgomery, AL vs. Manhattan, NY.

[Inkstain82]

There've been a lot of studies to that effect.

The exact number depends on where you live, but the gist is that once you have enough income to make sure that all of your basic needs are met, there's no correlation between more money and more happiness. In New York, that might be more like 70k. In rural areas, it's probably closer to $30k/year.

[thekid]

I've heard similar things from a number of sources. The idea basically being that above a certain "comfortable" threshold, more money does not necessarily increase your hapiness level.

I would tend to agree, otherwise you'd routinely have a happiness scale going down linearly in correlation to income / net worth.

That's not the case. After reaching a certain level below which you are wanting for necessities, other aspects of your life such as meaningful, loving relations with others, sense of engagement, feeling of gratitute, etc. have a deeper impact on hapiness than mo money (genetic predisposition also plays a key role).

Money is limited in the amount of hapiness it can bring, primarily because (1) we get used to more/better fast and then want more/better some more and (2) it's relative - if I have the biggest house in a poor 'hood, I'll feel much "happier" then if I have a bigger house that happens to be the smallest house in a rich 'hood. Pursuing more money is just blindly seeking to flatter your ego without realizing you have become like a hampster running in a wheel. It's important to have the good sense to step back and review why you do things.

Ultimately, I think being "happy" is just a state of mind. You have to just be happy, without conditionning it. Certainly concentrating on achieving financial security but also having deep, loving relationships and having a grateful positive outlook will go a much longer way towards being "happy", which is pretty much what we all want, than simply having more money.

[lovcom]

The problem with making more money is that spending goes up. Someone gets a raise? They go buy a car with a higher payment, so in the end, many continue to live pay-check to pay-check even as they continue to get raises.

The trick is to maintain a lifestyle that changes little as one's income increases.

The income I have and given my savings I "should" be driving a Lexus, but I drive a bottom of the line Toyota instead. My income rises each year, but my lifestyle stays the same.

In our society, people covet. They own too many cars, or cars that are too expensive, too big a house, too much descritionary spending, and as these types squander their hard earned money, they will always have a justification for that 4th timeshare, the $50,000 RangeRover, etc....in this model of "living" earning more money actually can mean less happiness, more worry, less security.

I manage to live on about 1/8 of the income I make each year, and I am very happy. Would a $60,000 Lexus make me happier? A newer faster laptop to replace the 14 month old one I have now?

I think true happiness comes to those that are thankful for what they have and find peace, love, and joy from things that are not material, not often tangible.

And in the USA, $50,000 is chump changes even for a single person not having the burden of a family, nor mortgage.

I think for a family of 4, life does not provide interesting options until around $150,000.

[thekid]

Originally Posted by lovcom

The problem with making more money is that spending goes up. Someone gets a raise? They go buy a car with a higher payment, so in the end, many continue to live pay-check to pay-check even as they continue to get raises.

The trick is to maintain a lifestyle that changes little as one's income increases.

The income I have and given my savings I "should" be driving a Lexus, but I drive a bottom of the line Toyota instead. My income rises each year, but my lifestyle stays the same.

In our society, people covet. They own too many cars, or cars that are too expensive, too big a house, too much descritionary spending, and as these types squander their hard earned money, they will always have a justification for that 4th timeshare, the $50,000 RangeRover, etc....in this model of "living" earning more money actually can mean less happiness, more worry, less security.

I manage to live on about 1/8 of the income I make each year, and I am very happy. Would a $60,000 Lexus make me happier? A newer faster laptop to replace the 14 month old one I have now?

I think true happiness comes to those that are thankful for what they have and find peace, love, and joy from things that are not material, not often tangible.

And in the USA, $50,000 is chump changes even for a single person not having the burden of a family, nor mortgage.

I think for a family of 4, life does not provide interesting options until around $150,000.

My parents in law had businesses, worked hard, made much money and spent very little and do not want or covet much material goods or services. They are not very happy people though. They are negative, calculating and very nervous people.

I think the point is that money period (spent or saved) is not a valid way to gain "more happiness". People think so. They are wrong. They are confusing status and ego for happiness.

More money is not bad for happiness, what it is is neutral to slightly positive.

Human values and genetic predisposition are much more important contributors to happiness levels.

[Scanner]

I kind of agree with 150K being the "interesting" threshold for options for a national household. I mean, at that level, you can talk a Disney Club membership, a vacation home (maybe). . .extras around the house, along with tracking for a decent retirement. I know what you mean. . ."the finer things in life."

Still. . .I think the "magic" on being happy with 50K is finding pleasure in the things you have to pay for. . .like you are going to have to pay school taxes even at 50K/year. . .so you should probably be really involved in your kid's school activities and derive pleasure from that. After all, you're paying for it, right? Even if it's chaperoning dances, umpiring little league, whatever.

Of course, finding work you can at least 90% enjoy (I doubt hardly anyone enjoys their job 100% of the time) is part of the equation too.

I recently counseled a patient that her casino job was killing her back and she can't go on forever in the miserable condition where people spit on her, causing her emotional distress and the sustained postures and repetitive motions. I told her the old saying, "There's a season for all things" and she should think about an exit strategy now.

Because of the happiness factor, I think jobs like that should only "transitory" as it's hard for anyone to work like that for a long time, unless the pay is phenomenal (which it wasn't).

Anyway, I added that your vocation selection is so important because we spend more of our time here compared with our family (about equal I guess - family and vocation), faith, friends, etc. I mean, I knew she was a person of very strong faith but how much time can you pray, worship? I doubt hardly the most reverent engages in that more than 40 hours/week.

[jasonnoguchi]

Well, as i read somewhere else on this forum, if money don't buy you happiness, you are not shopping in the correct places! hahaha

[wincrasher]

I think it depends on how you measure happiness and what your lifestyle is like.

I'd be pretty miserable on less than $100k and would have to give up alot of the things I enjoy. I spend alot of money entertaining others, gifts and travel that add to my "happiness". It will give me ALOT of happiness to send my 2 nephews to college without them having to incur any debt.

But I've made well over $50k a year for the last 20 years. So I guess part of it is where you are coming from.

[Broken Arrow]

This is actually a very fascinating topic. Fascinating not so much because we can't figure out the financial side of things. The problem here is how does one go about defining and perhaps even quantifying happiness? Can there even be a quantitative threshold upon where you reach "peak happiness"?

And to stir things even more, I also think our standards and definition of happiness changes as time goes by as well. For example, when I was younger, I was completely ignorant about money. And yet, for the most part, I was fairly happy. Now that I know a lot more about money, I admit I'm not too happy about having been so broke and ignorant.

I suppose that brings up another issue, eh? Happiness through ignorance. One can be happy because they don't know any better. The downside, of course, is that you are still in peril. You just don't know it... but because you don't know, you can be happy for a while (until the unforeseen danger materializes).

So... in the end, it is what some of you have pointed out: That happiness is about perception somehow. My teenage self would have been ecstatic if I had just $100 in the pocket. Now? I wouldn't even blink an eye at $10k.

However, I don't know what the exact answer is. I too have read several studies that tried to quantify a certain income threshold as where happiness peaks. But truth to tell, I think that's barking up the wrong tree. Wherever the answer lies, I think we need to keep focusing on the concept of happiness itself....

[mainyy]

TOO MUCH MONEY can not bring you happiness. Money just bring you clothes and food,etc.

So,I think the most important thing is happy.

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by mainyy

TOO MUCH MONEY can not bring you happiness. Money just bring you clothes and food,etc.

So,I think the most important thing is happy.

Yes, money buys you clothes and food... but if you already have enough clothes and not enough food... you'd probably be happier with more money.

When you are "poor" and don't have a lot, and suffer for basic necessities (food, clothing & shelter), then yes every dollar counts toward making that person more satisfied.

As you gain more dollars, there will come a point where much more "dollars" will not matter so much, because your basic needs are fulfilled.

Every single person is limited to a 24-hour day... when we have what we need, then people tend to look for emotional needs instead of physical needs.

Money usually does not fulfill emotional needs... like friendship, community, family. Money is personal and internal; happiness is sharing and external. Money is a physical thing; feelings are an emotional thing.

Time changes all things.... including wants, needs, regrets, etc. But we're each unique... and we're each human... making mistakes... still continuing and striving to better our own worlds.

IMO, happiness and money, will always be impossible to quantify. Simply because every person is different in their physical and emotional needs.

[Broken Arrow]

For anyone interested, here's the e-book preview version of Well-being: The Foundations of Hedonic Psychology. It's a fairly comprehensive book delving into this subject matter.

This is one of those academic sources where we've derived many of our mainstream conclusions from, such as that money (especially excess money) is a weak correlate to happiness.

I'm not going to lie. I didn't read this 600 page tome. But the quick and dirty conclusion is that healthy relationships in marriage, friendship, and family are the strongest correlates to happiness.

[thekid]

Originally Posted by Broken Arrow

Can there even be a quantitative threshold upon where you reach "peak happiness"?

It's not so much about what income level provides "peak" happiness as it is about what provides more "bang for the buck" extra doses of well being and happiness. Studies pretty uniformely show that above certain "comfortable living" threshold, more money is not one of the biggest "happiness boosters". Other aspects of your life are, such as those you note in your last post.

The thing with happpiness is that, first of all, your genetic predisposition to being a happy, positive person is the single greatest variable. From there, should you wish to try to maximize it, it is wiser to focus on your personal relationships, develop a sense of engagement and gratitute than focus on gaining more money.

That said, as you noted, you can be happy while living on a path to disaster. Happiness is not all. We like to feel good and it is important to live in such a state, but at the same time self discipline and rational decision making is important if we want to achieve a secure, sustainable well being.

[Kris10Leigh]

Sometimes, many times actually, I think I would be happier with less. I find those days when I am not glued to the television and/or computer are the happiest days I spend. I've given up my cell phone and in a way that makes me happier because every time I think of it I remember that I am saving about $45 a month.

I must admit though, we just moved into a larger house and it has brought great joy. I do not think I'd want anything larger and the main source of happiness is in the nature that came with the house. That is what makes me happy.

For me, happiness is being debt free and secure. I'm working on it.

[Inkstain82]

Originally Posted by Kris10Leigh

I find those days when I am not glued to the television and/or computer are the happiest days I spend.

All I have is a computer, and the days when I tear myself away from it and actually *do* something, even something as simple as a little baking, I am a lot happier. But it's just so tempting and easy to sit on the couch on the laptop all day.

Back when I had a TV, video game systems *and* a computer, I didn't even give myself a chance to have real fun.

[Fizgig]

My 91 year old grandmother taught me that it takes 5 things to be happy.

1. Good health
2. Financial security (needs met and some wants)
3. Something to love (mate, friends, pet)
4. Something to do
5. Something to look forward to

[am_vanquish]

Originally Posted by Fizgig

My 91 year old grandmother taught me that it takes 5 things to be happy.

1. Good health
2. Financial security (needs met and some wants)
3. Something to love (mate, friends, pet)
4. Something to do
5. Something to look forward to

The last two seem intricately related to financial resources. Yes, it's possible to be content solely with your everyday tasks, but using money (hobbies, traveling, etc.) to accomplish the final 2 seems like it would give you the "most" happiness.

This is a topic DW and I have been discussing a lot lately ... we've been saving like crazy and we feel ourselves falling into the trap of saving money simply to save money. We're trying to really focus the PURPOSE for our money and identify how we can use it to maximize our satisfaction with life. The most satisfying "spending" we've found so far is traveling.

[jasonnoguchi]

ok, here's my list of things needed to be happy:

1. Good health
2. Good family relations
3. Healthy family members
4. Never have to think about bills or debt
5. Fully paid off house and car as a family foundation
6. Ability to fulfill the dreams of our kids and family
7. still have enough resources in time and money to help others in need occassionally.

[Fizgig]

Originally Posted by am_vanquish

The last two seem intricately related to financial resources. Yes, it's possible to be content solely with your everyday tasks, but using money (hobbies, traveling, etc.) to accomplish the final 2 seems like it would give you the "most" happiness.

This is a topic DW and I have been discussing a lot lately ... we've been saving like crazy and we feel ourselves falling into the trap of saving money simply to save money. We're trying to really focus the PURPOSE for our money and identify how we can use it to maximize our satisfaction with life. The most satisfying "spending" we've found so far is traveling.

Disposable money CAN help with the last two things, but I don't think it's necessary at all.

When I think about "something to do," I consider what activities I enjoy and add value or calm to my life. Most of those cost little or nothing - cooking a new recipe, doing an hour of yoga, helping out at the local nature preserve, taking the dog for a run, etc.

"Something to look forward to" is VERY important and one of the trickiest, I think. I'll admit that I usually fall back on money for this one - I love concerts, comedy shows, opera, etc, and I like to buy tickets for something months in advance and then get excited about the show. I've been trying to become more creative with this one and link it to goals - I look forward to paying off the second mortgage, for one. I try to have fun events planned with my friends and on the calendar.