I work with this guy who ...

[irmanator]

He likes to debate to pass the time on our boring job. That part is ok. The part that isn't is I feel he is wrong but I am new to debating my opinions and am not so good at it. So if I throw his statement out there maybe you guys can help me set him strait?? (or set me strait whichever??)


He whole heartedly thinks that the rich should be taxed higher to support the less fortunate because it is not there fault they are born into certain circumstances.

I said to him that --- rich people provide jobs and buy things that causes factory's to also hire people

he said--- that the factorys don't pay enough for people to live on and that people cannot raise their standard on our particular factory pay (8.25/hr)

I said --- I agree that 8.25 is a low wage but if you don't like it you know where the door is. I don't exactly like it myself but I have been there 6 yrs and when i started the state minumum was 5.15 so it was better than Mcdonalds and by now I have many friends and the stability of the garunteed 40 hrs as opposed to fast food fluctuating hrs is that I was able to buy a house and put 12% into my 401k and I also have medical ins so although 8.25 or in my case 10.85 is not huge I can honestly say my life has gotten better while there.

He said-- thats still not good enough that they only pay 8.25 they should be forced to pay more and if it was unionized they would.


I would like help with argueing with him saying that Bill Gates et al should just cut a check to the govt every month right off the top to pay for the less fortunate.

I told him that Bill Gates has charitable organizations and he said percentage wise low income ppl contribute a higher percentage of their income to charity than Bill Gates does.

[mainyy]

Your friend is a cute guy...Maybe he is a communist...

He lives in his ideal .

You should suggest that he must face the reality.

[highsavings]

That guy is dead wrong. The majority of rich people come from poor or middle class families.

I disagree with taxing higher incomes to help the "unfortunate". If someone is making 8 bucks an hour and are not happy, then they should do something about it to make more instead of complaining about their wage. If you get paid a low wage, it is for a reason. That reason is that anyone can do the same job.

Its possible you might not be able to reason with that guy's opinion. Some people are just stuck on the idea of stealing from the rich to feed the poor. If he thinks rich should be taxed more to pay for the kids born into poor families, he is a moron. He is just jealous and has resentment towards people who earns more than him.

I could go off on a rant...I hate people who think the rich get taxed more because the "poor" (lazy) people need help. I'm making less than 15,000 a year, and I think opposite of that guy.

[SnoopyCool]

It is much more efficient to change your own world than to demand that the world change to suit your needs.

[maat55]

Typical arguement from someone who wants to turn his screw then go home and live high on the hog.

I would tell him that the free market deternmines wages and prices. It is the system that created the most properous country, across the board, in world history.

Those who work harder and smarter are rewarded the most, as it should be.

[Inkstain82]

He has different values than you do. There's no point in debating "the world should be like X" because it's subjective and based on different value systems.

If he thinks his standard of living can't be raised on $8.25/hour, tell him to put me in charge of his finances for a few years. I get final say on all financial decisions, and at the end of say, three years, I get 25% of whatever savings we've built up.

[m3racer]

That guy is an idiot!!! I would just ignore him and his pea brain. Tell him if he wants more $$$ or thinks others are entitled to higher paying jobs than they should do1 of 2 things. Either go invent something or get an education in a skilled field.

[Fern]

The fact is, nowhere in the world is there a greater disparity in wealth as in the US. Wealth is not all due to how hard you work. If, for example, you're lucky enough to be a VP at a financial services firm, you know, like the ones who got all that taxpayer bailout money, you're still enjoying s-figure year-end bonuses. Do you really think that VP worked that much harder than a cop or firefighter who risks his life every day? Is their job less important? I don't think so.

Thanks to favorable tax policies under presidencies like that of Bush, wealthy people in the US may in some cases pay less in taxes than someone making $40,000.

Is that fair? This argument has not so much to do with individuals' desire to work hard as it does with government policies that favor the rich.

[Inkstain82]

Originally Posted by Fern

The fact is, nowhere in the world is there a greater disparity in wealth as in the US. Wealth is not all due to how hard you work. If, for example, you're lucky enough to be a VP at a financial services firm, you know, like the ones who got all that taxpayer bailout money, you're still enjoying s-figure year-end bonuses. Do you really think that VP worked that much harder than a cop or firefighter who risks his life every day? Is their job less important? I don't think so.

Thanks to favorable tax policies under presidencies like that of Bush, wealthy people in the US may in some cases pay less in taxes than someone making $40,000.

Is that fair? This argument has not so much to do with individuals' desire to work hard as it does with government policies that favor the rich.

Individual examples do not prove a rule.

I would argue that the reason that America has such a wealth disparity is not because the poor aren't getting a fair shake, but for two other reasons:

1) Cultural trends that cause the "poor" to spend themselves into true poverty buying things they don't need
2) Our advanced economy, the largest in the world, provides more opportunities for meritocratic advance into the category of ultrarich.

[toboramai]

Originally Posted by highsavings

That guy is dead wrong. The majority of rich people come from poor or middle class families.

Proof or link showing this is true?

I am considered 'rich' for my age and in favor of a progressive tax system.

[toboramai]

Originally Posted by Inkstain82

2) Our advanced economy, the largest in the world, provides more opportunities for meritocratic advance into the category of ultrarich.

I pretty sure that social mobility has declined in the US...quick searching of google. i have read more credible sources but here is a link on the issue.



Social mobility lower in US and Britain than in other advanced countries

[irmanator]

Originally Posted by mainyy

Your friend is a cute guy...Maybe he is a communist...

He lives in his ideal .

You should suggest that he must face the reality.

I think he might be lol I called him one the other day and it didn't bother him at all.

[irmanator]

The other thing he likes to tell me is that it is ok for people to work for their riches but he hates that some people just inherit it and don't have to work. That rich people shouldn't be able to leave it to their kids. wtf i don't get that.

Also he believes in socialized medicine, because you shouldn't be denied healthcare due to money...

[Inkstain82]

Originally Posted by toboramai

I pretty sure that social mobility has declined in the US...quick searching of google. i have read more credible sources but here is a link on the issue.



Social mobility lower in US and Britain than in other advanced countries

That may be true, but that doesn't disprove that one specific subset of upward mobility, the chance to get ridiculously rich, may be more prevalent in the U.S.

[Mjenn]

Well, I happen to agree with your coworker on many of the topics (not inheritance), so I'm probably not the best person to ask, but I don't know if the US is such a shining bastion of upward mobility anymore. Sure, the top earners are, but an interesting study in our morning newspaper -not in english so I cannot post a link, stated that if you were born in the lowest income bracket in the US, you had a 42% chance of staying there.

Compared to Denmark, the highest rated, you only had a 25% chance and Sweden a 26% chance - both countries that, while not socialist, have a great deal of social welfare programs and high tax rates.

I personally think this is due to free university level education more so than anything else, at least that is what I have seen amongst my friends who have moved up the ladder here....

[PrincessPerky]

While I enjoy a good debate, it is hard to avoid falling into the thought that you can change the person you are debating with. While you might say something to make him think once or twice, you are not likely to change a libertarian into a communist nor vice versa. So long as you keep that in mind, debate can be fun.

I always tell my kids if you find yourself repeating old arguments you need to stop for a break. "is too" is a waste of time, no matter how you dress it up, if you are repeating you are done for the time being.

Anyway, if the debate is fun for you, stretches your mind, then who cares if he never changes.

[elessar78]

Originally Posted by Inkstain82

Individual examples do not prove a rule.

I would argue that the reason that America has such a wealth disparity is not because the poor aren't getting a fair shake, but for two other reasons:

1) Cultural trends that cause the "poor" to spend themselves into true poverty buying things they don't need
2) Our advanced economy, the largest in the world, provides more opportunities for meritocratic advance into the category of ultrarich.

There's a lot of truth in these two statements.

There are rules for taking care of your money, which I think the rich and upwardly mobile understand and utilize. I think the concept that "hard work" is all you need to become rich is misleading. As someone pointed out, a lot of people work hard. The difference is how much control you have over what you make (and how much you spend).

I grew up in the Washington DC area which, arguably, is a pretty wealthy area. Recently, moved to an old steel town with a lot of poverty. For work, my wife goes into homes of poor people and notes that they basically have the same material things we do, they take care of multiple pets, and probably eat better than we do. We are comfortably middle class, but if we make way more than they do and they live a similar lifestyle then there's something that doesn't add up.

And it's true that there are more than enough opportunities to earn a living wage or better in this country. The unfortunate thing is that there's a lack of money management knowledge out there to boost people in the next social strata. I don't think it's that people who are poor are necessary lazy, I know a lot of lazy middle class and rich people who know just enough to stay where they are.

It's also not a question of fair. Because most of us have the ability to change our situation. Sometimes, it takes hard decisions to create change.

It's a question of whether or not you have the will power/discipline/courage to change?

[lovcom]

Originally Posted by maat55

Typical arguement from someone who wants to turn his screw then go home and live high on the hog.

I would tell him that the free market deternmines wages and prices. It is the system that created the most properous country, across the board, in world history.

Those who work harder and smarter are rewarded the most, as it should be.

...UNTIL the government allows MASSVIE amounts of foreigners to either come here and take our IT jobs for a fraction of the pay, OR allows jobs here to go off-shore....

...so you see, the so called free market only works for and within a given area. Going global and open market is great, but not when the spigot is turned on full blast, as was allowed by the Bush administration.

All this free market talk is cr@p when the government allows foreigners to take massive numbers of our jobs...

The Bush admin was in the hip pocket of corporate America, the rich, the captains of industry, board of directors and for this reason, Bush allowed cheap labor in to take the jobs away from highly educated American workers.

Ronald Reagan would NOT be impressed, nor am I (a lifelong republican).

[lovcom]

Originally Posted by Mjenn

Well, I happen to agree with your coworker on many of the topics (not inheritance), so I'm probably not the best person to ask, but I don't know if the US is such a shining bastion of upward mobility anymore. Sure, the top earners are, but an interesting study in our morning newspaper -not in english so I cannot post a link, stated that if you were born in the lowest income bracket in the US, you had a 42% chance of staying there.

Compared to Denmark, the highest rated, you only had a 25% chance and Sweden a 26% chance - both countries that, while not socialist, have a great deal of social welfare programs and high tax rates.

I personally think this is due to free university level education more so than anything else, at least that is what I have seen amongst my friends who have moved up the ladder here....

You can't compare the USA with the Nanny states of Denmark and Sweden. Over there you have to try very hard to stay poor because of all the socialistic entitlements. In contrast, the USA has less of those, so again your comparision is unfair.

The reason folks coming out of poor families in the USA are more likely to be poor themselves is NOT a lack of opportunitie or lack of entitlements.

The reason is this:

Mom and dad (if there is a dad) is either on crack, or lazy, an alcoholic, or uneducated, or would rather watch TV then attend night school, or loves to party, or works overtime to keep that gangsta Chrysler 300 with $3,000 spinning wheels, allows their kids to stay up past 11pm on school nights, does not champion their education, nor participates in their children's lives....the list goes on and no....

Democrats, socialists, and liberals love to blame society for the ills of the poor...and at the end of the day, and in most cases, the fault lands squarely on each poor adult person.

[Snodog]

I'm a little surprised at all of those who said they are not in favor of wealth re-distribution. Do you really want a flat tax with no exemptions? That would be devastating to a lot of folks, probably many close friends and relatives of yours.

I wish our income taxes where more progressive. When you take into account all taxes (sales, real estate, ect.) our taxes are quite regressive.

I agree with your friend, the high income individual should pay more and its fair because the rules are the same for every person. Also they gain more from the system and have more to loose if the system crumbles. And i'm not worried about the world falling apart because noone will create jobs anymore if we raise taxes a few percent. Lots of other countries (just as prosperous as US) have higher tax rates and jobs are still created.

The rich paying a little more tax is a small price to pay to avoid another civil war.

Flame away