Wife Threatening To Leave!!

[brianj]

In the past I have gotten some really good advice from those who this blog but, this time I think I am in big trouble.

All weekend my wife and I have been arguing about cutting up our credit cards. It got so bad that this morning she threatened to leave me if I ever cut up any of her cards. Together we have over THIRTEEN credit cards!!

Every since we started listen to Dave Ramsey I have wanted to cut up our cards but, my wife insist that we can't afford to do it. Citing that "many people use them in a responsible way to support their finances in the future - that's why we do not need to cut up our cards."

With our priority being to pay off debt and do everything to clear outstanding balances. Why do we need them? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Brian Jefferies
Over 40 Overweight and In Debt

[jIM_Ohio]

How much debt are you in?
what does your budget look like?
what is your financial situation?

[GREENBACK]

That's a tricky one. Are you in debt because of the cards?
Are you using them responsibly? I.E. paying them off every month?
If the answer is yes(1) and no(2) I would not suggest using them. I use credit cards regularly but always pay the balance when due. Not everyone has this discipline. Ask yourself and your wife if you have this discipline. If there is even so much as a maybe in the answer then the cards should go. A marriage saving compromise could be freezing all but one in a jug of water for a while to see if you can live without them.

They are a convinence and you can get a few perks from them but if she's somehow feels she "needs" them I think thats a problem.

[minnie1928]

I can't tell from your post, but is your wife on board with paying off the debt? If so, then why don't you simply take all the credit cards and lock them up somewhere or freeze them. If you are in a situation where the credit cards will be too tempting, then you need to put them some where that makes them inconvenient (really inconvenient) to get to.

I've never understood the need to "cut them up" either, even if you cut them they can still be used online if you have the pertinent information.

This is not worth ruining your marriage for! You need to find a compromise on this. Thirteen cards is a lot of cards, perhaps she would feel better if you each carried 1 card and put the others away. Once she sees that she doesn't even need that one card, then put that one away if you/she wants to. This is as much a mental task as it is a physical one.

Good luck!

[jIM_Ohio]

Originally Posted by minnie1928

I can't tell from your post, but is your wife on board with paying off the debt? If so, then why don't you simply take all the credit cards and lock them up somewhere or freeze them. If you are in a situation where the credit cards will be too tempting, then you need to put them some where that makes them inconvenient (really inconvenient) to get to.

I've never understood the need to "cut them up" either, even if you cut them they can still be used online if you have the pertinent information.

This is not worth ruining your marriage for! You need to find a compromise on this. Thirteen cards is a lot of cards, perhaps she would feel better if you each carried 1 card and put the others away. Once she sees that she doesn't even need that one card, then put that one away if you/she wants to. This is as much a mental task as it is a physical one.

Good luck!

find one card, one benefit, and choose to maximize that benefit. We have around 8 cards I believe (between wife and I), and the primary card pays down our 2nd mortgage and the second choice of card is one that pays down our 1st mortgage. No other rebate made sense to me right now.

[brianj]

Originally Posted by GREENBACK

That's a tricky one. Are you in debt because of the cards?
Are you using them responsibly? I.E. paying them off every month?
If the answer is yes(1) and no(2) I would not suggest using them. I use credit cards regularly but always pay the balance when due. Not everyone has this discipline. Ask yourself and your wife if you have this discipline. If there is even so much as a maybe in the answer then the cards should go. A marriage saving compromise could be freezing all but one in a jug of water for a while to see if you can live without them.

They are a convinence and you can get a few perks from them but if she's somehow feels she "needs" them I think thats a problem.

Thank for your advice.

I believe that one of the reasons we are in debt is due to having them because, until then the only debt we had was our home.

We pay on our cards separately now because, my wife continued to recharge her cards up. I have seven cards in my name and she has ten in her name. I am down to one card in my name and she still owes on all ten of her cards.

[minnie1928]

Oh, I forgot to mention, we've followed DR since January 2005 and it's been great. However, we did NOT follow his program to the letter. We did not cut up the cards (we always paid them in full even before DR), we didn't cut the 401k contribution, we don't use cash, etc. We found the parts of the program that worked for us and stuck with it. I'm telling you this to show you that you can be successful with his plan, without following his plan 100%.

[minnie1928]

Originally Posted by brianj

Thank for your advice.

I believe that one of the reasons we are in debt is due to having them because, until then the only debt we had was our home.

We pay on our cards separately now because, my wife continued to recharge her cards up. I have seven cards in my name and she has ten in her name. I am down to one card in my name and she still owes on all ten of her cards.

If she's carrying 10 cards and using 10 cards, there's a definite problem there. She's refusing because she feels dependent upon the cards. Maybe you need to get creative here....perhaps, ask her to leave 8 cards at home or give her cash for the week to spend as she wants (knowing it's all she has for the week). Whatever you decide to try, I'd suggest you do that as well. That way it's not "I'm saying you can only spend $x in cash this week". Make it more of a team effort, "How about if we each get $x to spend each week?". If you don't spend your money, great...but at least this way she won't feel so singled out.

[sweeps]

Originally Posted by brianj

Citing that "many people use them in a responsible way to support their finances in the future - that's why we do not need to cut up our cards."

Did you tell her, "Yeah, but you're not one of them."?

To play devil's advocate here, is it possible that you have gone to an extreme with DR's teachings and it's caused your wife to go on the defensive? I don't listen to DR at all, but from what I have heard about him, there's not a lot of flexibility in his plan.

[snafu]

use them in a responsible way to support their finances in the future -

Some questions...How does DW use 13 CCs? Does she like the Idea of all that credit or does she Use all that credit? Are the cards joint or only in her name? Does she find shopping theraputic? Is she getting a high from buying?

Do you have buy-in with the idea of reducing debt? Arguing is negative, what postive actions have you taken? Have you stopped using CCs? cut-up your cards? Do you return anything she buys for you on CC? Have you created a poster sized chart to visually promote your ideas? What can you do or relinquish to get DW to buy-in to the idea of not using credit?

[whitestripe]

You are going to have to point out to your wife that just because other people use them in a responsible way, doesnt mean that is an excuse to her to keep hers and use them IRRESPONSIBLY.

Maybe you could consider 'divorcing finances'. Then her money (or her debt) will be her own, and she will have to make proper choices and not have you to rely on to fix them. Then she might realise you were right in wanting to cut them up.

[GREENBACK]

I get this whole Ramsey thing but it seems a lot of folks think they should worship at his altar. He's not the end all to be all! Only an individual can determine their own path. He makes a fortune giving advice but that's what it is; advice, not gospel. DR doesn't know everyone's situation and particularly if you have a disagreeing spouse but you want to remain together. It's time to use a little finesse if your direct approach ain't working.

You said that you "believe" the reason is the cards. To me that's a sure indicator. The cards are the problem. You two need to track expenses to see where you both are spending using these cards. I think you'll find an multitude of unnecessary purchases. This may be reality check but can you sell it to DW. This might poor gas on the fire and that's where you'll really find out if the cc's are a make or break deal for the two of you. I hope it's an eye opener that gets you both on the same page. Use sugar and not vinegar during this process.

[jIM_Ohio]

Until wife alknowledges the problem you will not be able to suggest any good solution. I liked the cash idea- but some people have to spend more than others. Longer commute, women get hair done more often and is more expensive...

You need to do a few things, IMO to trigger the alknowledgement of the problem:

1) have you discussed retirement with wife? Date, location, what retirement means?

2) do you have kids? How will they be impacted by #1?

3) do you have short term goals (like kids education)?

4) do you have a budget which
a) spends less than you earn
b) allows for reaching of goal #1
c) allows for reaching goal #2
d) allows for reaching goal #3
e) allows for other goals not listed in this basic excercise?

Get onto same page on these issues. 4a might get dicey if you bring up the debt- so avoid the debt while doing 4a- just list the basic expenses of the household and then see what is left over.

A good financial plan will have you spending only 80% of what you earn. The other 20% funds long and short term goals.

20% of your gross pay should be set aside somewhere as "cash" and "invested" to your financial independance.

15% of your gross should go to 401k or a similar retirement plan (like a Roth IRA)
5% of your gross to short term savings (vacations, mortgage pay down, new car fund, kids college funds...)

The 15% to retirement is relatively rigid- a person would have to spend a lot of time convincing me they do not need to save 15%.

The 5% is a gray area- for some families this might need to be 10-20% because of fluctuating income, job uncertainty, or coming close to a certain goal (the year before college or retirement, for example).

If you are heavy into debt, I suggest 20% of gross pay going to debt repayment. This means if you gross 100k per year, 20k per year goes to pay down debt (cc debt and car loans type). 100k gross would probably be about 66k after taxes, so 20k of the 66k is what I am suggesting for debt repayment- that is not a misprint.

The issue I have with DR or similar advice is that he looks at expenses and suggests cutting them. I prefer to look at income and then base everything off the income.

20% of gross income to savings...
then balance the budget living on 80% of what you make. Whether you make 40k or 300k, the same 80% rule applies and same 20% rule applies. Always save 20%. 20% of salary, 20% of commissions, 20% of bonuses... and this gives you a flow chart for your money.

[maat55]

Using credit cards takes a lot of discipline. She obviously is not disciplined enough to do so. The idea of having ten is a sign in its self.

You seem to be doing well with it by getting yours payed off. I used to be hard nosed no cards, but have learned to use one well.

My wife followed my lead reluctantly. If yours is not willing, you may be looking at counceling. Good luck.

[zetta]

If you are heavy into debt, I suggest 20% of gross pay going to debt repayment. This means if you gross 100k per year, 20k per year goes to pay down debt (cc debt and car loans type). 100k gross would probably be about 66k after taxes, so 20k of the 66k is what I am suggesting for debt repayment- that is not a misprint.

Jim_Ohio,
Just curious, are you recommending that the hypothetical person making 100k gross (66k net) should send 20k to pay down debt IN ADDITION to 15k to retirement and 5k to short-term savings? Thus living on only the remaining 26k? Or would you recommend suspending the retirement and short-term savings until the debt is paid off, thus living on 46k?

[Scanner]

Might I suggest a post-nuptial agreement? They are becoming more and more commonplace in the legal community.

I don't pretend to understand them fully but you basically sign an agreement (with neither party under duress of course) that from hereonin, any debt that is incurred by you is yours and any debt incurred by her is hers should you split. It can be a tool for mediation, as well as divorce, if she is threatening to leave you anyway.

It sounds like she is resisting the idea of debt reduction so rather than appease her, I would confront her with the issue. If she doesn't want to discuss it, well, that tells you something. . .that she doesn't mind you being on the hook for her debts. At that point, you have to decide if you love her that much to finance the lifestyle she thinks she is entitled to.

[wincrasher]

Well, if she was serious in saying such a thing, I'd tell her go ahead. She probably wasn't.

I think this is a subliminal way to exert her power over you. Ensuring your continued poverty may be the only thing she can control in your relationship.

Maybe you should try to figure out why she feels less than an equal partner to you. Why is she trying to hurt you? Does she think you are trying to control her by controlling her spending? Does she understand the worry or panic you have about your finances? Does she understand she's hurting herself by hurting you?

Somehow you have to have a loving conversation about your future together. If you can't find a way, you may need to cut her loose.

[jIM_Ohio]

Originally Posted by zetta

Jim_Ohio,
Just curious, are you recommending that the hypothetical person making 100k gross (66k net) should send 20k to pay down debt IN ADDITION to 15k to retirement and 5k to short-term savings? Thus living on only the remaining 26k? Or would you recommend suspending the retirement and short-term savings until the debt is paid off, thus living on 46k?

20% of gross to financial independance

which would be debt
then once paid off to retirement

with some exceptions depending on the debt amount and interest rates.

[Seeker]

Budget is posted in his blog dated 12/6/2008 (or at least an outdated one).

Looks like wife's CCs are not major company credit cards.... just a bunch of store specific ones. Not a lot of the total debt is hers; his is greater as posted on the 12/6 blog.

$80 a week mad money for each of them. $320/month each = $640

Boys lunch money weekly = $68 = $272/month

I hope those groceries of $600 are actually monthly and NOT weekly ??? I cannot imagine $2400 per month just for groceries!

One of the debts listed is for furniture and it's listed as a total of $1.5k.

None of the wifes' other individual cc debt totals are over $1k.... but interest rates are not posted. Wife's total debt with the furniture is approx $5k.

Taxes are $3k.

American Express is husbands' with almost $7k total debt; and husbands Master Card of $1.5k total. $8.5k total husbands debt.

House has been robbed of a new A/C unit. Looks like house values in that area have gone down and they are upside-down on the loan due to refinancing in 2001. They've been trying to get into another house in another area. FICO scores are in the 700's. This is probably the incentive for Brian to pay down debt and get money in order.

Income = 4800 / month
Husband was working two jobs -- cannot tell if still is. Income may be outdated.

Past due to a tune of $600 on utility bill Water & Sewer at least in December.

Wife's Hair = $165 per month ?????

Dish TV, Cable Internet, Cell, Vonage (auto) total $225 / month.

Income versus expenses leaves him .19 per month? Or at least in November/December of last year.

----------------------

Brian, you need to update your budget in order for us to determine anything. Add the interest rate percentages that you're paying on each individual debt. Determine order of payoffs (highest interest rate first if possible).

You need to work with your wife and come to a decision as to how to tackle all of this. Separating bills into his and hers will not resolve the problem if only one of you is paying and the other is charging.

Both of you need to be at the same page and both of you need to determine what your goals as a family are to be.

If you work together as a team to pay all the credit cards down and out, then you'll be that much closer to your goals.

If you and she become defensive and argue about what needs to heppen, it will not happen.

You both need to sit down together and discuss your goals as a family. What does she want? What do you want? In order to make that happen, compromise. Sit, listen and talk.

Put together a plan for meeting the compromised goals. Work together as a team to figure out how to make it happen and when the milestones will be if you follow that plan. Goals must be achieveable in order for both of your to get out of the mess you find yourselves in. One step at a time. One day at a time.

[jIM_Ohio]

Brian should take the time to organize his data- he needs to do this to help himself.