Help! Beyond saver/spender fight

[EEinNJ]

I have a chronic problem with my spouse that goes beyond the saver/spender fight, and I’m at a loss to know what to do anymore. We’re late 40’s, married 5 years, no kids. I’m the saver, money manager, and primary wage earner as an engineer. She’s the spender, always seems to be broke whether she has a job or not, doesn’t pay bills on time, has bad credit (no cards now), can’t be bothered with balancing a checkbook.. Curently she in under-employed in retail after nearly 3 years of unemployment follwing lay-offs from corporate contract work.

I’ve been trying the “hers-mine- and ours” method, just having a joint checking account for incidental household bills. I pay all the regular bills (mortgage, groceries, electric, etc.) from my own checking account. Whenever we have joint money, bit by bit she spends it until it’s all gone. A couple of years ago I had to sell over 32K in joint stocks to pay off credit cards she had maxed out and hidden from me until it was too late. I want her to pay that money back to us, but I don’t think it will ever happen. Setting dollar limits, etc. just doesn’t work.. I gave up on the joint account, stopped putting any money in, and ignoring whatever she did with it, since it was a small amount of money not worth fighting over.

I’m fortunate, my elderly parents are fairly well-off and give each of us money every Christmas. In past years, I put money into my Roth and home stuff, while I can’t say what she did other than some medical expenses. This year, we each put our money in the joint account until we figured out plans for it, discussing things like Roth IRA contributions, home repairs, a dream trip. A step in the right direction, I thought. Then I asked for the checkbook to go pay for an errand- come to find out she’d already written out over 1000 bucks for personal bills she was behind on, and hasn’t balanced the checkbook in over 8 months. This after trying to plan together, her saying she’d been listening to Suze Orman, trying to learn from her, and me. I feel like it’s just BS and the same old irresponsible, bad habits are sabotaging us once again. I took back my share of the money from the account, and I’ve been avoiding a confrontation, but I’m resentful, angry, and don’t know what to do. Help!

[FrugalIII]

I faced a similar but not so drastic situation. Unfortunately (maybe) it ended in divorce. Suze says it, as do many advisors. We need to find out if we are financially compatable with someone BEFORE we marry them. Usually we can't change a person's habits. They must do that for themself. When my wife and I got married, we each kept individual accounts, had a joint account to which we both contributed and it was for the household bills ONLY. Well, that worked for a while until she started spending bill money on herself and her kids and we didn't have money to pay the bills when they were due. So what I did was close that account. I then paid all the bills out of my account but insisted she contribute to that account based on her income. We each contributed an amount based on an equal percentage of our income. Suze outlines that in one of her books. If you each contribute an equal dollar amount, the low wage earner gets screwed. The only problem then was getting her to give me the money each month for the account to keep it solvent. That worked much better. Maybe you could try that. We also had NO joint credit cards!! She wanted absolutely nothing to do with handling the monthly finances and didn't even care what the bills amounted to. The divorce came about due to different issues though.

[SacredFaerie]

Suze has a point. Financial compatibility needs to be looked at BEFORE marriage. Sometimes you can't change people.

NO credit cards. NO joint accounts.

Frugal had some really good advice for you.

[jIM_Ohio]

What suze ormon recomends does not help OP get out of his jam (OP is already married).

I have been there as recent as September of 2008, less than 6 months ago. In my case wife had around 11k of cc debt she had maintained by sending cc's in my name to her mother's house. I liquidated the cash from an EF to pay them off (we are still rebuilding the EF now).

Here is what I would do: forget his/hers/ours. There is his and hers only. If she is tapping joint accounts, you need to stop the root cause.

Put all money for bills into account in your name
Give her a monthly allowance. If she wants more, she needs to earn it.
Go to freecreditreport.com and get a free credit report in minutes for you and wife- that should tell you what her total debt is.

Once you see scope of the numbers problem, I might suggest posting a budget here.

[scfr]

While checking the free credit report is a fantastic suggestion, please note that www.annualcreditreport.com is the official site sanctioned by the FTC.

That is the one that was set up as required by the government; unfortunately, it is not widely advertised and so not as well known. See The Federal Trade Commission's Information on Free Annual Credit Reports

Also, your wife should be the one to get her own report; I think for you to get it without her permission is illegal.

[EEinNJ]

I tried to figure this stuff out with her before we got married, but I ignored some warning signs. I also thought people acting in good faith can overcome their differences, grow and work things out. I'd still like to think that, but every time this issue comes up, it hits my hot buttons.

Our money is completely seperate except for this small household account, but that is her go-to when she runs out of money or deems a trip to the garden or home center for a pet project a household expense. She has a job to cover her personal expenses and student loan (at age 49!), and her only joint expense is the cell phones. I pay for everything else, and my fear is I'm only enabling a lack of responsibility, while she views me as controlling and cheap instead of helping.

I don't want to spend my married life playing financial defense, I want a partner who will contribute, not be a burden. Unfortunately, most financial advice is aimed at individuals, not couples.

As far as credit reports, hers is still bad but all the accounts are closed, now she uses a debit card. My credit is ok but took a hit because she put my name on a couple of cards as a user, but since I have no debt besides a mortgage and don't plan on taking any on, it doesn't much matter.

[mommyof4]

Have you spoken to a marriage councillor about all of this? This may need an outside "neutral" person to help you through all of this.

[pearlieq]

I think you're going to need to figure out what your dealbreakers are. She's not likely to change at this point in her life.

Are you willing to support her completely without resenting it? If so, keep all household accounts in your name, pay all bills, and give her a set household allowance. If she wants more, she needs to earn more. Keep all credit accounts separate and speak to an attorney well-versed in financial matters to make sure there's no way she could be held liable for your debts. This may not be possible depending on where you live.

For a scenario like that to work, you would have to be able to trust her not to commit fraud or identity theft by using your information to open accounts.

If you're not willing to support her you're going to have bigger problems because you're never going to be able to trust her to have her portion of the bill money. Who wants to worry about that all the time?

Frankly, I wouldn't be willing to stay in a relationship like that and would strongly consider divorce. Even if you still stayed together after the divorce, you wouldn't be financially connected at all. But I would really have trouble respecting and trusting an adult who couldn't keep their own financial house in order and was willing to lie (even by omission) to being irresponsible.

I guess if I were you I would think long and hard about what I can live with. Are you willing to carry her? Are you willing to put your retirement at risk? Can you stand the idea of her frittering away any possible inheritance you might receive? Would you be on the hook for alimony if you split up? What would happen if she decided one day that she wanted a divorce?

These are the kinds of problems that split up marriages. If she's truly willing to work at it, you might be able to make it work, but it would take a huge effort on her part. Once you figure out what you're willing to tolerate in the marriage, you need to lay it out for her. If she's willing to work on it (and I think that would include both marriage and financial counseling) you might be able to make a go of it. If she's not, it might be time to cut your losses now.

Good luck.

[EEinNJ]

We've been to several different therapists over the years, most recently doing an Imago workshop. That helps with emotional stuff and talking to each other in a more constructive way, but personal finance seems to be beyond the scope. Obviously there are trust and control issues here. On a simpler level, it's the Grasshopper and the Ant fable. What did the Ant do the second time the Grasshopper needed a bailout?

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by pearlieq

Frankly, I wouldn't be willing to stay in a relationship like that and would strongly consider divorce. Even if you still stayed together after the divorce, you wouldn't be financially connected at all.

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree.

I actually know a couple who got divorced for this reason. They are very close and actually now share a duplex. One lives upstairs, one lives downstairs. But their finances are totally separate. They could not function as a couple (after going through bankruptcy while together).

I personally couldn't marry, or stay married, to somewho who I didn't trust. I wish you the best.

[jIM_Ohio]

Originally Posted by pearlieq

I think you're going to need to figure out what your dealbreakers are. She's not likely to change at this point in her life.

DISAGREE

I have seen my wife change her ways within a day or two of speaking to her in September (she is 34). In many ways I learned a few things.

We know little about how tight the OPs budget is, what their short and mid term goals are to suggest "he is right, she is wrong".

IMO the wife can learn if she
a) wants to learn
b) is willing to trust
c) the trust is reciprocated
d) and above all else the wife is treated with respect

Financial dictatorships probably don't work out to well on the personal side. Sooner or later the peasents revolt.

Could OP post a budget (how tight is it?) and also state what the immediate financial goals are (for 2009) and what the long term goals are too?

[Broken Arrow]

I don't have any particular advice. My marriage broke down because of issues very similar to this....

Still, I sympathize with your dilemma. I hope that, somehow, the two of you can work it out.

That said, let's just say I'll never stay with another woman whom I can't see eye-to-eye with financially again. I have now learned that financial compatibility can be just as important as any other types of compatibility, be it interests, backgrounds, or even religion.

I won't say that one should consider divorce as an option. To me, it's never an option. But then, there's also a reason why parachutes were invented....

[DebbieL]

I hate to sound negative, but I couldn't stay married to someone like that. It would drive me CRAZY, and the anger would just keep building. Sorry.

[Ima saver]

I just have to say that I agree with Debbie and BA. I could not stay married to someone that I did not trust.

[mommyof4]

EE, I know that I'm going against the "grain" of the thread, but I really want to encourage you to try to work this out with your wife. I understand that you feel "cheated" and I really do understand your side of the story. I have a husband who has not always upfront and honest with me with how he spent his money, and I do know how much it hurts. However, I know that people can and do change, and even though you're in a world of hurt, I hope that you can find someone to help you and your wife work through this.

[jIM_Ohio]

Originally Posted by mommyof4

EE, I know that I'm going against the "grain" of the thread, but I really want to encourage you to try to work this out with your wife. I understand that you feel "cheated" and I really do understand your side of the story. I have a husband who has not always upfront and honest with me with how he spent his money, and I do know how much it hurts. However, I know that people can and do change, and even though you're in a world of hurt, I hope that you can find someone to help you and your wife work through this.

What she said.
Good answer.

[SacredFaerie]

Originally Posted by jIM_Ohio

What suze ormon recomends does not help OP get out of his jam (OP is already married).

I have been there as recent as September of 2008, less than 6 months ago. In my case wife had around 11k of cc debt she had maintained by sending cc's in my name to her mother's house. I liquidated the cash from an EF to pay them off (we are still rebuilding the EF now).

Here is what I would do: forget his/hers/ours. There is his and hers only. If she is tapping joint accounts, you need to stop the root cause.

Put all money for bills into account in your name
Give her a monthly allowance. If she wants more, she needs to earn it.
Go to freecreditreport.com and get a free credit report in minutes for you and wife- that should tell you what her total debt is.

Once you see scope of the numbers problem, I might suggest posting a budget here.

YES! If all you can do is enable her a trial separation might be an idea. It would show you both something a little different.

[maat55]

My wife is pretty much the same way, so I completely took over the finances. I setup a budget and said this is it, agree or leave. She did not like it, but got used to it OK.

When one person chooses to act like a child, they should expect to be treated as such. I pay all the bills and we agree on how to spend the extra. I've been married 27 years and was willing to end the marriage as apposed to living with a financial idiot.

Many here do not agree with me, but they can stay on the Titanic by themselves. I did what I had to do and do not appologize for it.

[disneysteve]

With the wisdom of Solomon, I'll say that I think both Jim and maat are right. It really depends on the situation and the individuals involved. Yes, people "can" change if they want to and are willing to do what is necessary. Some people, however, "won't" change (which is not the same as "can't" change).

OP, you need to determine if your spouse is a "won't" change person. That probably means sitting down with open books and saying that this is where things stand, here are the problems as you see them and here is what you think ought to happen to correct them. Ask her thoughts. Does she agree with your assessment of the problem? Does she agree that her spending habits are a problem? Is it something that she seriously wants to address and correct? If it is, then work together to fix it. If she denies that there is a problem and has no desire or intention to change the way she has been doing things, you then need to decide if you want to go forward in the relationship. Make it very clear to her that her behavior is threatening your marriage and lack of willingness to change may result in it ending. If she is still unwilling to change, do what you feel you need to do.

[umarider]

How is her mental/emotional health? Only asking because I have a family member who is bi-polar. Much as they would like to get a grip on their finances, it seems that during emotional swings, the money just goes through their hands like water. And during the really giddy "up" times, credit are obligations are made/obtained/used, because they are "sure" that more money will be coming in soon, etc. In those situations, it is healthier to take away the temptation and put the person on an allowance.