Self-defense

[Broken Arrow]

Originally Posted by zakity

^^^ Yeah that....

Someone who is mistaken has a different demeanor than someone who is breaking in. They are as shocked as you. They are also embarrassed. The person breaking in won't react the same way.

As for a drunk person, they are drunk. Drunk people are never quiet. A person breaking in would be quiet.

You just have to access each situation as it happens. This is where knowing the laws for your state and what you can and can not do is so important.

Excellent response! I wasn't sure if I wanted to get into it, but... shooting first and asking questions later is... not the trained shooter way. It's also a great way to end up in jail... but again, it also depends on state law.

Anecdotally, I recall a story about a homeowner who mistakenly shot and killed his own teenage daughter because she had snuck out of the house to go on a date, and then tried to sneak back in. Had the homeowner had a slightly different mindset, and lights for heaven sake, he wouldn't end up in jail wishing he had more situational awareness and target discrimination.

[zakity]

The more I think about it, well, I want to add:

Another thing to do is train the other people in your household to stay down if there is an intruder, to not pop their heads out of their bedroom doors if they hear a noise. Our boys know to not come out of their bedroom until we say they can. They know to get on the floor or under their bed.

[zooracer]

I'm seeing a lot of comments regarding when to shoot and when not to shoot.
Gun safety is very common sense and is not difficult to master.

You only have to know four things about gun safety....

1. all guns are always loaded.
If you put your gun down after unloading it, go into the other room, come back and pick it up again...you assume it is loaded and check before doing something stupid.

2. Finger stays off the trigger till the sights are on on the target.
This is how you train. This prevents you from shooting your foot as you draw.

3. Know your target and what is beyond.
You DO NOT shoot at shapes or shadows!

4. Never point your gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

You have to violate more than one of these rules to have a neglegent discharge resulting in injury.

Memorize them well. Practice this every day you handle your firearm.

[threebeansalad]

I firmly believe the best way to secure your home and family are through the basics- dead bolts and faithfully locking your doors and windows. Home intruders will move onto an easier target if your home is secure. Can all the people who have guns at home for protection honestly say they've taken all the necessary precautions to secure their home?

Who is to say you'll even wake up if an intruder comes in at night? Your family will be safer in a secure home rather than a home with gun.

The house across the street from me was burglarized a month ago. The intruder entered an unlocked door when no one was home. At first I was disturbed that the crime was so close to me. But, when I look at how lax my neighbors are with security, I actually feel safer because I can't imagine an intruder would bother with my house when there are so many easier targets.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by threebeansalad

I firmly believe the best way to secure your home and family are through the basics- dead bolts and faithfully locking your doors and windows.

This is a very good point, actually. So many times, some crime occurs and when the details come out, it turns out that the victim did something careless to make himself a perfect target. It might be leaving your doors unlocked. It might be leaving valuables on the seat of your car. It might be wearing flashy jewelry in a bad neighborhood. Or something along those lines. Many crimes wouldn't occur if people were more careful of their behavior and their surroundings.

[m3racer]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

Many crimes wouldn't occur if people were more careful of their behavior and their surroundings.

I disagree. Many crimes wouldn't occur if we didn't have so many jack asses in our society!

[F16]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

Every hotel I've ever stayed in has a door that locks when you close it. There are extra locks you can turn from inside, but the door is locked when it is closed and you need a key/card to enter. That's what I was thinking of.

That was pretty cheap hotel, for students actually.
Take a look.
http://studentenheim.at/europa/en/europa.php

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by m3racer

I disagree. Many crimes wouldn't occur if we didn't have so many jack asses in our society!

Well, that's true. You could leave a bundle of cash on you car seat with the windows down if there were no criminals. But in the real world, leaving something of value in clear view is asking for trouble.

When I was a resident, one of the med students came in crying one day. Someone had broken into her car and stolen her medical instruments worth a few hundred dollars. We went out with her to see the car and it turned out she had a Jeep with a snap-on plastic/canvas cover. No locks. Nothing to stop someone from unsnapping the cover and removing anything from the vehicle. It certainly isn't right that someone stole her stuff, but I find it hard to not place some blame with her for leaving that stuff unprotected and in full view to anyone who looked.

[rennigade]

If you aren't trained properly, don't even bother having a gun in the house, it will do you no good. Also, if you aren't prepared to use it, meaning if you aren't prepared to kill someone invading your home, then don't buy one, its pointless.

I originallly bought my sig for recreational reasons. Just for fun, target practice sorta stuff. The home protection is just an added bonus, and yes I fall under the 2 categories mentioned above.

In all honesty though, a good home security system will protect you better than a gun will. Once the alarm is triggered, the burglar will be out the door.

[Taribor]

There are a million arguments on both sides of this debate and in my opinion, this is a very personal decision.


As a law enforcement guy, I would just offer to you the following:

-If you are getting a gun, get the training first. ...and shooting at a target in a controlled environment is one hell of a lot different than waking up disoriented on the middle of the night, locating your weapon, and using it as deadly force.

-Get something easy to use and reliable (I like Glocks, but that's just me), and be sure everyone in your home knows what it is and how to use it (for safety purposes).

-If you have kids, find another means of self defense. Not sure about the public, but on the federal side we are actually required by agency policy to lock our weapons up at home. The "pistol under the pillow" crap in hollywood is a good way to get hurt.

-To those who think trained individuals do not have accidental/negligent discharges, you are wrong. Google the video of the DEA agent who shot himself during a school presentation. There are numerous others. Familiarity breeds laziness sometimes.

-Motion detectors, double locking doors, and a dog will prevent/deter 99% of potential problems.



As far as a concealed permit goes, if that is your desire, so be it. But you better understand the rules change when you leave your home and if you pull your gun for anthing other than self-defense, you are openning yourself up to a boatlaod of problems.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by rennigade

If you aren't trained properly, don't even bother having a gun in the house, it will do you no good. Also, if you aren't prepared to use it, meaning if you aren't prepared to kill someone invading your home, then don't buy one, its pointless.

I originallly bought my sig for recreational reasons. Just for fun, target practice sorta stuff. The home protection is just an added bonus, and yes I fall under the 2 categories mentioned above.

In all honesty though, a good home security system will protect you better than a gun will. Once the alarm is triggered, the burglar will be out the door.

Alarms and dogs are very good deterants, but my guns gives me just as much peace of mind. If someone comes in with the intent to kill, I want a fighting chance and not to be shot in the back of the head, on my knees.

[Broken Arrow]

Originally Posted by Taribor

-If you have kids, find another means of self defense. Not sure about the public, but on the federal side we are actually required by agency policy to lock our weapons up at home. The "pistol under the pillow" crap in hollywood is a good way to get hurt.

Yeah, when you have kids, things get infinitely more complicated. However, I wouldn't deter someone from having a firearm simply on the basis of having children though. My only case is to make sure that people plan and train properly.

-To those who think trained individuals do not have accidental/negligent discharges, you are wrong. Google the video of the DEA agent who shot himself during a school presentation. There are numerous others. Familiarity breeds laziness sometimes.

As for that video, yeah, I've seen it years ago. The agent was SUPPOSE to be trained, but he clearly broke the 4 Cardinal Rules of Firearm Safety. Something that is taught in every NRA-certified basic handgun safety, and regardless of skill level, it should be ingrained into every shooter's psyche so deeply that we should be mumbling it in our sleep.

Even though he's DEA, based on what we've seen of his gun handling on the video, he didn't fit our definition of "trained". After a while, you can generally tell just by the way someone handles a firearm, but it also shows in the steps he took. For example, when you present a firearm, you remove the magazine, rack the slide and lock it open, and make sure you have the round from the chamber in your other hand. That's all you do. Leave the slide locked open, don't go anywhere near the trigger.

What happened next is what went awry. First, I don't think he accounted for the round in the chamber. Second, he released the slide. No need to do that, especially since doing so does not provide visual confirmation that the chamber is empty. Last but not least, he went near and even squeezed the trigger. If memory serves me, I think it was a Glock, and as a former Glock guy myself, I understand the rationale for doing so to release the firing pin spring. However, that's also the problem: These extra steps are meant for storage or field stripping, NOT for presenting firearms. Using one procedure for designed for another purpose suggests "untrained" or at least "under-trained". Cardinal Rules were broken as a result. I heard that after the incident, that agent has been desked.

This may seem harsh and critical, but unfortunate fact is, just because someone is in law enforcement, it doesn't automatically mean that they are a trained shooter. Skill levels vary even amongst the LE community. I've known officers whose gun handling skills are simply awe inspiring (and extremely safe!), and I've known ones that simply scare the crap out of me that they even have a firearm on their side.

[zakity]

-If you have kids, find another means of self defense. Not sure about the public, but on the federal side we are actually required by agency policy to lock our weapons up at home. The "pistol under the pillow" crap in hollywood is a good way to get hurt.

I have to totally disagree with this one. My children are probably more trained than I am with the weapons. The oldest is probably a better shot than I am. I know they have more practice in than I do.

It depends on the training, responsibility level, and maturity of the kids than anything else. We also never did the "don't touch it" thing. We did the "if you have to touch it, this is how you do it, but it is better to go get an adult first". If I would have told my boys to "don't touch it", well, they never did well with the "don't do it" thing.

We also started gun education at 18 mos. You can start going over the rules with them that young. It doesn't really stick for a while, but they can repeat the rules really well now because they have been hearing them all their life.

[Taribor]

[/quote]
As for that video, yeah, I've seen it years ago. The agent was SUPPOSE to be trained, but he clearly broke the 4 Cardinal Rules of Firearm Safety. Something that is taught in every NRA-certified basic handgun safety, and regardless of skill level, it should be ingrained into every shooter's psyche so deeply that we should be mumbling it in our sleep.

Even though he's DEA, based on what we've seen of his gun handling on the video, he didn't fit our definition of "trained". After a while, you can generally tell just by the way someone handles a firearm, but it also shows in the steps he took. For example, when you present a firearm, you remove the magazine, rack the slide and lock it open, and make sure you have the round from the chamber in your other hand. That's all you do. Leave the slide locked open, don't go anywhere near the trigger.

What happened next is what went awry. First, I don't think he accounted for the round in the chamber. Second, he released the slide. No need to do that, especially since doing so does not provide visual confirmation that the chamber is empty. Last but not least, he went near and even squeezed the trigger. If memory serves me, I think it was a Glock, and as a former Glock guy myself, I understand the rationale for doing so to release the firing pin spring. However, that's also the problem: These extra steps are meant for storage or field stripping, NOT for presenting firearms. Using one procedure for designed for another purpose suggests "untrained" or at least "under-trained". Cardinal Rules were broken as a result. I heard that after the incident, that agent has been desked.

This may seem harsh and critical, but unfortunate fact is, just because someone is in law enforcement, it doesn't automatically mean that they are a trained shooter. Skill levels vary even amongst the LE community. I've known officers whose gun handling skills are simply awe inspiring (and extremely safe!), and I've known ones that simply scare the crap out of me that they even have a firearm on their side.[/quote]



You actually prove my point. LE officers ARE trained, and while the marksmanship, discipline, and skill level may differ, I assure you they are trained. That DEA guy went through more training than 99.999999% of the posters on this board will see in their lifetime, yet he still acted like an idiot with a gun.

If trained professionals can get lazy and have a negligent discharge, what about kids? I can show you case after case after case of parents who though little Johnny was so responsible at 10 years old only to go through a horrific tragedy.

I'm not saying don't own a gun if you have kids (I do). But I am saying that having a loaded weapon within unsupervised access to a child is flat out irresponsible and indefensible. A ten year old does not possess the judgement to be 100% trusted at all times, unsupervised (i.e. loaded in the bedside table where he/she can get to it during the day unsupervised) around a loaded weapon, I don't care how many kiddie NRA classes they have been to, or how early in infancy they began hearing about gun safety. I know a parent who claims he keeps his gun loaded but secures it evey morning.....I guess that is a better than nothing, but I have to question how many times he forgets to secure his weapon while in a rush for work. It only takes one sequence of events to make a bad day.

My alarm, dog, locks, and exterior lights are my first line of defense; if someone makes it past that, then I will have had plenty of heads up to take the 30 seconds it takes to remove the child trigger lock from my Glock. That was my point with my comment about having another line of self-defense first.

[Taribor]

.....

[Broken Arrow]

Originally Posted by Taribor

I'm not saying don't own a gun if you have kids (I do). But I am saying that having a loaded weapon within unsupervised access to a child is flat out irresponsible and indefensible. A ten year old does not possess the judgement to be 100% trusted at all times, unsupervised (i.e. loaded in the bedside table where he/she can get to it during the day unsupervised) around a loaded weapon, I don't care how many kiddie NRA classes they have been to, or how early in infancy they began hearing about gun safety. I know a parent who claims he keeps his gun loaded but secures it evey morning.....I guess that is a better than nothing, but I have to question how many times he forgets to secure his weapon while in a rush for work. It only takes one sequence of events to make a bad day.

My alarm, dog, locks, and exterior lights are my first line of defense; if someone makes it past that, then I will have had plenty of heads up to take the 30 seconds it takes to remove the child trigger lock from my Glock. That was my point with my comment about having another line of self-defense first.

Oh! Well, I misunderstood your original statement then. I thought you meant to say that people who have kids shouldn't have guns at all.

I agree with your statement here. Buried in previous replies, I too have emphasized that I do not advise people having a loaded gun in the house.

I suppose we could nit-pick on what we consider is the definition of "trained" but in the end, we're all human beings, and accidents do happen. And as you say, that's all the reason why it's so important to realize that firearm safety is the top priority, and to also never rely on firearms exclusively for your protection.

Yeah, I believe that self-defense should be approached holistically, as a multi-layered approach. Firearms is only one of many factors to consider, and in my mind, it's not even the most important ones.

[zooracer]

Originally Posted by Taribor

There are a million arguments on both sides of this debate and in my opinion, this is a very personal decision.


As a law enforcement guy, I would just offer to you the following:

-If you are getting a gun, get the training first. ...and shooting at a target in a controlled environment is one hell of a lot different than waking up disoriented on the middle of the night, locating your weapon, and using it as deadly force.

-Get something easy to use and reliable (I like Glocks, but that's just me), and be sure everyone in your home knows what it is and how to use it (for safety purposes).

-If you have kids, find another means of self defense. Not sure about the public, but on the federal side we are actually required by agency policy to lock our weapons up at home. The "pistol under the pillow" crap in hollywood is a good way to get hurt.

-To those who think trained individuals do not have accidental/negligent discharges, you are wrong. Google the video of the DEA agent who shot himself during a school presentation. There are numerous others. Familiarity breeds laziness sometimes.

-Motion detectors, double locking doors, and a dog will prevent/deter 99% of potential problems.



As far as a concealed permit goes, if that is your desire, so be it. But you better understand the rules change when you leave your home and if you pull your gun for anthing other than self-defense, you are openning yourself up to a boatlaod of problems.

Oh geez, I remember that vid of the DEA guy giving a presentation with some other officers to some school children.
He broke two of the four rules I had mentioned above.

He had his finger on the trigger when his sights were not on the target AND he was pointing the gun at something he WAS NOT willing to destroy

Just because you are law enforcement certainly does not mean you know anything about how to handle a firearm.
Just look at the hit percentage of LEO's involved in shootouts. It is horrible!

I remember a cop I worked with who had pulled his shotgun out of the upright carrier in his car for a riot situation. When all was cleared up and he returned to his car, he put the shotgun back into it's carrier loaded. For some unknown reason, he decided to pull the trigger to CLEAR THE CHAMBER!
Blew the lights off the roof.

Also, just because you have kids does not mean you cannot own a firearm for defense.
Two of my best friends, none of which were/are LEO's, have little girls AND have handguns locked away in their bedrooms. Combination safes.
The girls have all been introduced to the guns, know what they are, know not to touch them (they are all under 9 yrs old), etc...

With a little common sense, firearms can be very safe with children.

Also, all this talk about being disoriented when waking up in the middle of the night...

I personally have never had a problem with this. When a noise wakes me up (like my dogs barking), I come to already knowing that I'm sleeping in my bed (where else would I be sleeping ), in my bedroom, in my house...I'm also already aware that it is night time.
If it is something that is alarming to me, then I find myself pretty darn alert as I roll out of my bed and pick up my handgun on the night stand next to me (loaded and ready).

Very little disorientation for me...I dont know about other people...

[GRITSinMS]

I have heard it said that a gun is not a good idea because a criminal can easily overtake you and use it on you. Check with your local police about whether they offer self-defense classes. I just found out my local dept. offers a class once a year, starting in February, that teaches safety and self-defense. At the end, you will be qualified to volunteer with the police department.

We have two dogs in the house that bark when anyone is outside. I think that is a good deterrent. We have quite a few episodes of crime on our street (and it's not even a bad area). I have been meaning to look into security cameras, alarms and/or something. Does anyone have knowledge/advice of those?

[Broken Arrow]

Originally Posted by GRITSinMS

I have heard it said that a gun is not a good idea because a criminal can easily overtake you and use it on you. Check with your local police about whether they offer self-defense classes. I just found out my local dept. offers a class once a year, starting in February, that teaches safety and self-defense. At the end, you will be qualified to volunteer with the police department.

Yes, that is correct. Too many people mistakenly put too much faith into inanimate objects, and that could prove tragic in the end. A gun is just a tool. It won't magically turn you into Chuck Norris, able to fend off the worst of society. A good mindset and some training is much more important.

The program you suggest there is interesting, though I dare venture to say that most departments don't offer such a program. The reason being the usual matter of liability. If something were to happen to a dept-trained citizen, the city could be liable and the program would come into question.

[Snave]

I'm a baseball bat kind-of-guy myself. Keep one under the bed where it is easy to reach. It is little league bat so it is a bit smaller and easier to swing. Fortunately I have never had to use it, but did have to show it when I lived in an apartment. A gal that lived in the apartment next to mine had a boyfriend that couldn't get the hint one night and he was pounding on her door trying to get in and screaming. I opened my door and he asked who the hell I was. I said I was the guy with a baseball bat and who the hell was he.