Self-defense

[zakity]

Someone with a long driveway posted a sign about half-way up the drive "Warning: You are now in range." It had a picture of a rifle or a pistol (can't remember) on it. I thought it was great!

[m3racer]

Originally Posted by zakity

Someone with a long driveway posted a sign about half-way up the drive "Warning: You are now in range." It had a picture of a rifle or a pistol (can't remember) on it. I thought it was great!

LOL...That's great! Where do I get one?

[gackle]

Originally Posted by DisneySteve

This raises another of my concerns. Does a gun actually help? If you are attacked and you are armed and the attacker isn't, drawing your gun might help. Or it might result in a struggle with the attacker where you are at risk of being shot with your own weapon.

If you are both armed, it becomes a speed contest. Who can draw and fire faster?

OP also mentioned getting a concealed weapon permit. If you are going to carry all the time, if somebody jumps you on the street, you probably will not have time to draw your gun either.

There's a lot of "what if"s in your arguments, Steve. Obviously you will be right in some instances, but the fact is, at least in Texas, I hear stories in the news about once a month of intruders meeting their timely demise by armed homeowners. I think m3racer is on to it - having it ingrained in your psyche what you'll do when your home is broken into and being trained to use your gun can probably be the difference between life and death. Let's not forget that the homeowners also have the advantage of adrenaline pumping that allows feats to be performed that normally could not be.

[Broken Arrow]

Originally Posted by LivingAlmostLarge

We used to live between 2 cops in a bad neighborhood. I asked them once about owning a gun? Both gave me the same answer, get a big dog. Ah well, I got two small white furballs. Guess I'm screwed.

Not at all! Though no one would argue that a well-trained German Shepard or Rottie would be the ideal choice, any barking dog will do. Dogs greatly contribute to the "Awareness" factor, and that's really what's important. Alarms basically perform the same function, but I agree that dogs are the better choice.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't recommend a dog only for the sake of security, but if someone is a dog lover who is committed to caring for one, then the option here is a no-brainer.

Originally Posted by maat55

I won't deny that evil people have the upper hand, but I for one will not lay down for them. Having a gun may not help in every case, but it will in many, so I will have one in those cases. Dumb, drugged out crazy's will die at my house. If someone I don't know, enters my house uninvited, they will be shot, whether they have a weapon or not. I know that's easier said, but I have conditioned myself along time for that possibility.

It's always been my belief, that your home is your safe place and is not to be trespassed. I reserve the right to kill anyone who crosses that line. A home is sacred.

Well, then I would say that you have down what I see is the most important factor: Mindset. The mindset to be willing to fight it out. That's good so long as it is tempered with preparation and training that takes into account the physical and legal risks of firearms.

To be fair, not everyone agrees with that mindset. And among those who may agree, not everyone is willing to go that far. And there are even those who think they can go that far, but in reality, they are not able to because they are not trained or prepared enough to go that far. (For some reason, many people don't seem to realize that burglaries and home invasions are closer to CQC conditions. Static target shooting on paper at the local range is a fine start, but it's not adequate in my personal opinion.) For these people, they are better off seeking alternative strategies. But I don't see anything wrong with that.

In self-defense, there isn't a one-size-fits-all strategy. What will work for us will not work for others, and vice versa.

Originally Posted by m3racer

I've been told by several LEOs to get one. They told me to take classes so that I would be mentally prepared for every possible situation. They've told me they know of countless incidents where the assailant was thwarted because the potential victim had a gun. However, the key was the victim knew what they were going to do before the event occurred. I'm sure when this happens you get tunnel vision and only have seconds to make a decision. The whole idea is that getting a gun and firing it should just be a programmed response. Pretty scary stuff IMO.

Yeah, now you're getting it! Er, I would say that even LEOs don't always give the *cough* best advice.... But I was also a cop once so... for what that's worth. The best rule of thumb is to simply get a dog. Big one and well-trained if that makes you feel better. Firearms are optional, but you gotta know what you're getting yourself into, and how far you're willing to go.

Even if you are in the legal right for self-defense, potentially maiming or killing another human being is no laughing matter. Not everyone wants to go that far. That and I once read that the average court cost of clearing yourself in a lawsuit-- even when you are in the legal right!-- is about 20k. If you're OK with those potential risks, then come on in!

But like I said, if you do decide to come in, please do so with your eyes wide open, and not with any delusions as the next John Rambo.

Originally Posted by zakity

Someone with a long driveway posted a sign about half-way up the drive "Warning: You are now in range." It had a picture of a rifle or a pistol (can't remember) on it. I thought it was great!

Haha! I used to put up my own signs that read, "Will shoot for food and sport." And it included an image of my rifle that rested on a paper target that included my shot group.

But that was a long time ago, and I was much younger and dumber then. Never had a burglary incident though!

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by maat55

It's always been my belief, that your home is your safe place and is not to be trespassed. I reserve the right to kill anyone who crosses that line. A home is sacred.

Originally Posted by gackle

I hear stories in the news about once a month of intruders meeting their timely demise by armed homeowners.

Just to be clear, I am not opposed to personal gun ownership and I am absolutely not opposed to using deadly force to protect yourself, your family and your property. I think we are way too soft on criminals in this country and create no deterrent to committing crimes. People have the mindset that they will most likely get away with it or get a slap on the wrist. Being greeted by the barrel of a gun might not be such a bad deterrent.

The flipside, though, is that it might encourage more criminals to arm themselves and that will just escalate the violence and increase the innocent victim and bystander shootings.

gackle, just as you hear frequent stories of intruders being shot by armed homeowners, I hear frequent stories of accidental shootings by adults who were shot while cleaning a weapon or who mistook a family member as an intruder (while that adrenaline was pumping) or by children who somehow got a hold of their parents' gun. Just last month, a local police officer shot himself at home while cleaning his gun, and that is a individual who one would presume was well-trained in handling a weapon (though sometimes those who consider themselves well-trained are more likely to get sloppy).

It is a complicated issue. As BA has said, there is no one-size-fits-all answer.

[zakity]

Well, I don't think a lot of the cops or "well trained individuals" who shoot themselves while they are cleaning their gun.

When cleaning a weapon, the first thing you do is to empty the weapon. And then, you double check that it is empty.

As a rule of thumb, you always assume a weapon is loaded (even if you just unloaded it) unless it is in pieces.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

Just to be clear, I am not opposed to personal gun ownership and I am absolutely not opposed to using deadly force to protect yourself, your family and your property. I think we are way too soft on criminals in this country and create no deterrent to committing crimes. People have the mindset that they will most likely get away with it or get a slap on the wrist. Being greeted by the barrel of a gun might not be such a bad deterrent.

The flipside, though, is that it might encourage more criminals to arm themselves and that will just escalate the violence and increase the innocent victim and bystander shootings.

gackle, just as you hear frequent stories of intruders being shot by armed homeowners, I hear frequent stories of accidental shootings by adults who were shot while cleaning a weapon or who mistook a family member as an intruder (while that adrenaline was pumping) or by children who somehow got a hold of their parents' gun. Just last month, a local police officer shot himself at home while cleaning his gun, and that is a individual who one would presume was well-trained in handling a weapon (though sometimes those who consider themselves well-trained are more likely to get sloppy).

It is a complicated issue. As BA has said, there is no one-size-fits-all answer.

I have a huge respect for guns, just as I do for power tools. All can hurt you if not used properly.

As for armed homeowners escalating armed intruders, I assume anyone crazy enough to enter a home, especially at night, when people are their, is armed and capable of doing maximum damage. I will not hope, that he will let me live.

Just like with airplane hijacks, you have to assume the worst and fight back.

[gackle]

Steve, I agree with almost everything you post, but I guess on this subject we're going to have to disagree. I totally agree with zakity and maat55's last posts. With your examples, in the end it comes down to responsibility. The cops didn't make sure the weapon was unloaded and didn't treat it as if it was loaded. The family that their kids got a hold of the weapons didn't take the steps necessary to make sure that didn't happen. Another responsibility of having a gun in the house, in my opinion, is that when the kids in the house are old enough they need to be taught about gun safety and responsibility. But your right, there is no one-size-fits-all answer. This is a free country and unfortunately some people, good and bad, who shouldn't own firearms get ahold of them.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Nope Broken Arrow, my older dog is basically deaf and dumb to the world at night. And the younger a coward too afraid to bark. They're just body heat at night.

But seriously I've lived with big dogs on my bed and once a person was tapping on my window at home (1-story home), I only had a beagle sleeping with me. But when the person heard the a very large dog (Doberman) come running and barking I heard tires squealing. She was over 100 lbs and slept in the house with my mom. And my mom came running with a gun! She grew up with guns, my grandfather always had a shotgun, not that he needed it with the dogs around the house. You'd basically have to be dumb and stupid to enter the yard without one of the family there to say it's okay.

I might learn to use a gun one day. My DH isn't fond of the idea and I don't think we'll ever get to that point unless we're burglarized. But if we were I don't doubt we'd have a large dog the next day that was properly trained.

FWIW, my cousin works in the police canine unit. Those are some very tough dogs.

[AmbitiousSaver]

LivingAlmostLarge, we're the same way... we have a puny sheltie who is afraid of his shadow. Another deterrent could just be to put "Beware of Dog" signs up... we'd do it here but everyone knows we have a funny sheltie... it'd just be humorous and our alarm system is LOUD

[maat55]

We have a seventy-five pound brindle boxer who will bark at strange noises, but will lick the intruder, once they're in.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by gackle

Steve, I agree with almost everything you post, but I guess on this subject we're going to have to disagree. I totally agree with zakity and maat55's last posts. With your examples, in the end it comes down to responsibility. The cops didn't make sure the weapon was unloaded and didn't treat it as if it was loaded. The family that their kids got a hold of the weapons didn't take the steps necessary to make sure that didn't happen.

Actually, I don't think we disagree all that much. Again, I'm not opposed to gun ownership and I'm not opposed to using that gun to defend yourself and your family. I just worry because there is no way to pick and choose who gets to have one and no way to ensure that once someone has one, they treat it properly, store it properly, train their kids properly, etc. Far too many accidental shootings occur with personal weapons. That makes it pretty clear to me that a great many gun owners aren't doing what they should be doing. Does that mean nobody should be allowed to own a gun? Of course not. But maybe there needs to be a tighter system in place with better background checks, mandatory training and retraining annually, or something along those lines. I certainly don't have the answer. And I understand that if you outlaw gun ownership, only the criminals will have guns.

It is a difficult issue and a personal one. I don't own a gun and don't plan to. It just isn't something I'm comfortable with. But I totally understand why others feel differently and just hope that all who do own guns handle them with the proper care and respect they require.

I also agree with zakity and maat55's posts.

[m3racer]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

But maybe there needs to be a tighter system in place with better background checks, mandatory training and retraining annually, or something along those lines.

I'm surprised this isn't already in place.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

Actually, I don't think we disagree all that much. Again, I'm not opposed to gun ownership and I'm not opposed to using that gun to defend yourself and your family. I just worry because there is no way to pick and choose who gets to have one and no way to ensure that once someone has one, they treat it properly, store it properly, train their kids properly, etc. Far too many accidental shootings occur with personal weapons. That makes it pretty clear to me that a great many gun owners aren't doing what they should be doing. Does that mean nobody should be allowed to own a gun? Of course not. But maybe there needs to be a tighter system in place with better background checks, mandatory training and retraining annually, or something along those lines. I certainly don't have the answer. And I understand that if you outlaw gun ownership, only the criminals will have guns.

It is a difficult issue and a personal one. I don't own a gun and don't plan to. It just isn't something I'm comfortable with. But I totally understand why others feel differently and just hope that all who do own guns handle them with the proper care and respect they require.

I also agree with zakity and maat55's posts.

The world cannot be perfect, the best you can do is restrict people who have committed a violent crime, from owning them. Guns are only tools, they make small people able to defend themselves, from big people. Like money, they have good uses and bad uses, but you don't get rid of either.

I understand, you are not advocating the removal of guns from innocent people. I just think that across the board, it's safer for society to have them, than not. There are by far, many more good people than bad, and armed, they make society safer.

One thing I'm certain of is that bad people will always find a way to have guns. If the gov. tells society that they can no longer have guns, I will break every law I can to keep mine, because when it comes to survival, I am not going to rely on the government save me. Just like saving for retirement. I guess I've rambled enough.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

We had a 100+ lb dobie that would like anyone who was in the house and LOVED to sit on people's lap. Thought she was a lap dog. But put someone outside the door and she'd be growling and ready to attack. Once when another dog lunged at me, she grabbed it and threw the thing (probably like 20-30 lb dog) up in the air. By the way my Dobie was leashed the other dog came charging.

So sure some dogs are good in the house, but they can bite. Any dog with teeth can bite, including my bichon frise (the younger has bitten someone).

As for guns, any gun can kill. It just depends on who owns it and how the use it.

I have to say maat, if you are for guns, why aren't you for credit cards? It's not the credit cards that create debt, it's people. And CC are just tools. Some people can obviously responsibly manage them, but others cannot.

So if you believe in yourself then shouldn't credit cards not be to blame but the person's themselves?

[zakity]

The world cannot be perfect, the best you can do is restrict people who have committed a violent crime, from owning them. Guns are only tools, they make small people able to defend themselves, from big people. Like money, they have good uses and bad uses, but you don't get rid of either.

I need to edit this. I should say:

The world cannot be perfect, the best you can do is restrict people who have committed a violent crime, from legally owning them. Guns are only tools, they make small people able to defend themselves, from big people. Like money, they have good uses and bad uses, but you don't get rid of either.

The bad guys are always going to have guns. No matter how much we make it difficult for them, they will find a way.

[Scanner]

You know, thanks for bringing this subject up.

I am thinking of getting a shotgun not for self-defense per se in the usual sense of what everyone fears here. . .but rather if there becomes a chance of civil unrest due to a Hurricane, nuclear attack, energy prices/food shortages, etc. Then I feel a gun is a necessity.

I generally agree with DisneySteve. . .in the chance of an armed burglarly. . .reaching the gun may not happen in time and the advantage IMO is only slight (the intruder has the element of surprise and probably initiative on his side), if there is any advantage at all.

Besides, without my contacts at night, I am as blind as a bat.

However, when there is civil unrest in which the social order we have in America can degrade within a matter of 2 days IMO. . .you could have roving thugs and gangs in your streets out to take what is yours or hurt your family.

So. . .I just plan to keep the shotgun and shells in a locked armory.

I have read that a shotgun is the recommended ultimate defensive weapon - it doesn't penetrate walls as easy as a highpowered rifle or handgun (and injure someone accidently), can blast in a wide dispersal pattern for DW, and the sound of it cocking is usually enough to get surrender.

Anyway, I have never bought a firearm. . .what's the best way to go about it? Do I buy it and then sign up for a gun safety course or vice-versa?

[Scanner]

Just stumbled across this related link:

Energy fears looming, new survivalists prepare (AP) : Yahoo! Green

I am not quite that bad. . .I think those solutions are shortsighted as human beings live and die by the fact we are social animals and depend on socialization, not being hermits, to survive.

I mean, I'm typing this working CAT scan at our local hospital. . .what happens when they fall and break a leg? Will these survivalists have the nerve to show up and ask for help?

That being said, short term. . .I agree that "looting" can happen until the gov't is able to restore order.

[Broken Arrow]

Hmm, this is the part where things start to get a bit controversial because, with the gun crowd anyway, there's always at least one shotgun fan who can not be swayed no matter what you say.

But let me emphasize again that I think Mindset, Awareness, Preparation, and Training are more important than what choice of firearms you end up with. So, which to pick, in my personal opinion, is mostly hair-splitting....

That said, here's why people like shotguns:

* They are versatile. If you're out in the country, and you can have only one firearm, you can't go wrong with a shotgun. Not only are they suited for self-defense, but they are also suitable for hunting game.

* They are novice-friendly. I've debated that this is not quite the case, but because shotguns shoot a bunch of pellets, you supposedly do not have to aim as much in order to make a hit.

* They are powerful. In close ranges, no one argues the relative effectiveness of a shot-gun blast.

* Shots are unlikely to over-penetrate. Depending on load. I agree with this, although I contend that it's not the only firearm that has a low likelihood of overpenetration.

Now, here's why I don't like shotguns:

* They have high felt-recoil. Depending on load, the kick can be mitigated, but most people are not used to high felt-recoil. This is one reason why, in practice, most people are not as effective as they believe they are.

* They are heavy and cumbersome. Sure, call me a wimp, but it's true: It's heavy enough to require two hands. To me, that's not ideal when you have to hold the phone to talk to the 911 dispatcher while trying to handle a firearm at the same time. Ever tried to hold a shotgun with one hand?

* They shoot an unpredictable spread. If you are the only person, this may not be a big deal, but in reality, many people have other family members in the house. Do you really want to risk having some of the pellets hit your family members by accident?

* Limited attachments. I'm no "gear queer" (I didn't invent this term), but I am big believer in having lights on your firearm. This in itself is a whole other can of worms, but take my word: Better to have it and not need it than to need it (and end up accidentally mistaking a family member for the perpetrator). For shotguns, rails for attachments are very uncommon.

* Limited range. Do you have a back yard? Is it possible that you may find yourself shooting outdoors? Shotguns are typically good for up to 50 yards. Some argue that's enough, but I personally don't see why anyone would want to settle.... (And no, please don't tell me you've got rifled slugs on your saddle you can change out. You may be trained, but most average people are not, and they won't appreciate the increased felt recoil. )

Now, here's what I do like:

* For novices, I highly recommend a .357 revolver loaded with .38 specials. If you shop around and insist on it, you can even find one that has a rail to attach a weapon light. The one example that comes to mind is the Smith & Wesson Shield Gun. Highly recommended. On the cheap, Ruger's .38 special revolver is also very good.

Let me add that I wouldn't feel bad about being a "novice". Revolvers are reliable, intuitive, and do not have magazine springs that will weaken. In fact, chances are good that if I were to go back to firearms, I'd also go with a revolver.

* For more advanced folks or folks who don't mind spending a little time and money, I recommend an AR rifle. Any decent upper and lower will do, but I recommend a flat top (I believe it's called an A3 and A4 upper). Mount it with a CQC type sight along with a Back Up Iron Sight (BUIS). Also, be sure to attach a light.

* If you insist on a shotgun, stick with a reputable brand, such as Remington and Mossberg. Please attach a light to it if you can. Pistol sights are also recommended. If you don't mind spending a pretty penny, Vang Comp's shotguns are highly recommend, and they come properly modified and ready to go. Load with bird shots.

Personally, I love ARs. Light recoil. Highly effective. Highly accurate. Low likelihood of over-penetration (using hollow-points will help I think). Plenty of after-market options for lights and sights. Light enough to be handled with one hand so you can use the other to talk to 911 dispatcher, hold your kid's hand and guide them to your designated safe room, or just just operate doors and lights or hold another flashlight so you don't have to muzzle sweep anything just to light things up. Flash suppressor barrel also recommended to redirect muzzle flash... but can't remember if this part is civvie-legal.... But I'm sure your local friendly gun dealer will know. Finally, I argue that they are just as effective in close range as a shotgun, and easily out-performs medium to long ranges (up to 400 yards), in case you find yourself shooting outdoors.

Errrr... maybe I shouldn't be saying all this.... If it causes a problem, I'll delete it later. Or feel free to delete it for me, Mods. Anyways, I recommend going to a local range, rent out these firearms, and give them a try. In the end, you want to stick with one that you are most comfortable with. Better to hit with a mouse gun than to miss with an elephant gun.

Oh, and yes, I recommend to sign up for a basic handgun safety course. If I was somehow made President of Earth tomorrow, I would make this a mandatory requirement for all gun owners. Mine costed only $50, and it was a fun way to spend a night. If you already know exactly what kind of gun you want, then you can go ahead and buy it, but if not, don't be afraid to hold that off and ask about it when you take your safety class. They'll help steer you in the right direction.

As always, this is just my $0.02 (though in the end, I think you'll find that I'm right about this).

[Broken Arrow]

Originally Posted by Scanner

I generally agree with DisneySteve. . .in the chance of an armed burglarly. . .reaching the gun may not happen in time and the advantage IMO is only slight (the intruder has the element of surprise and probably initiative on his side), if there is any advantage at all.

You bring up a very good point!

Just wanted to say that this is precisely why advance preparation and training is so important. Many people out there are under the false impression that if they simply have a gun around in the house, they are ready for anything. In practice, this isn't always true, and it's even more so when you have to worry about corralling the kids (if you have kids).

Not wanting to reveal exactly what it is that I have set up (sorry), but I have to brag that my response time is next to nothing, while most people typically take much longer. They have to go and unlock their gun from the safe or vault, then load up their magazing or tube (many don't have loaded guns for safety reasons and to avoid weakening the tube or magazine spring), rack, and then they are ready. And that's assuming that they're also close to it at the time to access the firearm. Oh, and don't forget contact 911 while you're doing all this.

I will say that the fastest response time solution for people who are not well-trained (that I currently know of) is a loaded revolver secured in a quick-access gun vault. Let me clarify that I am not advocating having a loaded firearm in the house, even if it's inside a gun vault. Just saying that that's the fastest response time solution I've seen for average people.

However, I highly recommend the above combination, and you can leave the box of ammo inside such a vault as well. That's what my old setup was like.