Son got first black eye: what to do.

[Scanner]

Okay. . .my hat is my hand and I am askign for advice because I really don't know what to do and I may not show it a lot - but I really respect you guys as people. And sorry it's off the subject of finance.

First of all, I want to say, my oldest son is nothing like me. He's not obnoxious like me, he's very sweet, mild mannered, good athlete. involved at school - never in trouble at school other than talking a little too much sometimes (okay, he is like me a little, ha, ha).

Anyway, we have had this problem with a neighbor. They have 3 boys, one who is 13, one who is 8 and hte other who is 6. The 8 and the 6 year old constantly pick on my 5 year old (who is like me).

Now. . .the 5 year old can actually handles himself pretty good most of the time but we have told them over and over to just stay away from these kids.

I have had tried to have diplomatic discussions with the father and have said my son is at fault and I will keep him away from your kids as much as possible. But. . .they bait him and he's only 5.

Well, they were all out playing some made-up game today (I was out) with an empty water bottle. The empty water bottle hit the youngest in the finger and he cried and went in and got his brother.

The older brother who is 13 charges out without any warning and punches my oldest son in the eye (giving him a little shiner). Total sucker punch/assault/battery. I think my 10 year old was just shocked (and scared because he's older). Even all the other neighborhood kids were spooked by the whole thing.

The father can't be reasoned with. . . he thinks his kids do no wrong even when I am willing to accept 80% of the blame. He has an "Old school country" ideal (they are from the Dominican Republic) that they are just to defend themselves with force.

Now. . .I got home at 11 p.m. and naturally wanted to go pound on his door but I tried to cool myself down.

My wife is all upset tonight - she's crying and wants to leave the neighborhood (McMansions are too close together - it is hard even under the best of conditions). I told her I was bullied when I was young too and I think I turned out okay - it's a right of passage, as sad as it may be.

I was threatened a lot as a kid but I don't ever remember getting hit, except one tiem in the stomach.

Still, half of me wants to call the police to just make a point. My son just keeps saying, "IT's no big deal" - I am not sure if it's because he fears further retribution if I overreact. He doesn't have much to say.

Maybe I should just let it slide. . .in fact I would if he was the same age. The fact he is 13 really bothers me though. Not to doubt that my son will probably be marked as someone who will take a punch.

My 5 year can hold his own. . .my 10 year old just doesn't have that "Eye of the Tiger" but then again, I can't blame him against someone bigger and older.

Well, thanks for listening and I appreciate any advice.

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by Scanner

Okay. . .my hat is my hand and I am askign for advice because I really don't know what to do and I may not show it a lot - but I really respect you guys as people. And sorry it's off the subject of finance.

First of all, I want to say, my oldest son is nothing like me. He's not obnoxious like me, he's very sweet, mild mannered, good athlete. involved at school - never in trouble at school other than talking a little too much sometimes (okay, he is like me a little, ha, ha).

Anyway, we have had this problem with a neighbor. They have 3 boys, one who is 13, one who is 8 and hte other who is 6. The 8 and the 6 year old constantly pick on my 5 year old (who is like me).

Now. . .the 5 year old can actually handles himself pretty good most of the time but we have told them over and over to just stay away from these kids.

I have had tried to have diplomatic discussions with the father and have said my son is at fault and I will keep him away from your kids as much as possible. But. . .they bait him and he's only 5.

Well, they were all out playing some made-up game today (I was out) with an empty water bottle. The empty water bottle hit the youngest in the finger and he cried and went in and got his brother.

The older brother who is 13 charges out without any warning and punches my oldest son in the eye (giving him a little shiner). Total sucker punch/assault/battery. I think my 10 year old was just shocked (and scared because he's older). Even all the other neighborhood kids were spooked by the whole thing.

The father can't be reasoned with. . . he thinks his kids do no wrong even when I am willing to accept 80% of the blame. He has an "Old school country" ideal (they are from the Dominican Republic) that they are just to defend themselves with force.

Now. . .I got home at 11 p.m. and naturally wanted to go pound on his door but I tried to cool myself down.

My wife is all upset tonight - she's crying and wants to leave the neighborhood (McMansions are too close together - it is hard even under the best of conditions). I told her I was bullied when I was young too and I think I turned out okay - it's a right of passage, as sad as it may be.

I was threatened a lot as a kid but I don't ever remember getting hit, except one tiem in the stomach.

Still, half of me wants to call the police to just make a point. My son just keeps saying, "IT's no big deal" - I am not sure if it's because he fears further retribution if I overreact. He doesn't have much to say.

Maybe I should just let it slide. . .in fact I would if he was the same age. The fact he is 13 really bothers me though. Not to doubt that my son will probably be marked as someone who will take a punch.

My 5 year can hold his own. . .my 10 year old just doesn't have that "Eye of the Tiger" but then again, I can't blame him against someone bigger and older.

Well, thanks for listening and I appreciate any advice.

I think I'd take my son in hand and go over there and meet and talk with the father and just have the two boys talk in the two father's presence.

If the boys father prevents that from happening, then you might tell him that if it happens again, you will go to the police.

A boy 13 years old has got to learn that violence will not be tolerated especially with someone 3 years younger.

Unfortunately ignoring this may lead to further abuse. You should in one way or another let the father/mother know that the next time will not be tolerated.

At least IMO which may be old-fashioned too.

[Seeker]

You can also hand the father an article -- do a web search on "police and children fights"

The neighbor's father needs to get in control of his sons and you need to stop "taking 80% or the blame"

What are you taking this blame for? His children baiting your's into fights?

[Scanner]

Well, I'm taking the blame for the 5 year old because I know he's precocious. Yet. . .that being said about the poor little guy, we get no other complaints from his pre-K class or intermittent daycare. They say he's an angel there, never any problem. In fact, they say he's a "lady's man" and the girls fight to play with him

So. . .I have been wiling to bend backwards. . .and my 5 year old is "tough" - he holds his own with those older kids. I think he's returned the favor a lot of time with the taunting but then again, I'm not so sure. We have caught these kids stealing toys from our house when they first moved to the neighborhood; they are just bad news.

If it had been the 6 year old giving my 5 year old the black eye, I probably would have thought the fight 50/50.

I guess we both feel tremendously guilty too. . .this all happened between 4:00 and 5:00, an hour when our 10 year old is home alone on T/W/R's. It happened like 5 minutes before my wife got home so she's feeling incredibly guilty, as am I.

We are talking on having him be at my office with me - doing homework instead of being home alone so this doesn't happen again. We feel guilty because we have said for him to get out and about and get some exercise and not be inside on the computer and then he got out and got clobbered. OF course, it's easy to focus on the one thing that's happened in the hundreds of days without any incident but still. . .we feel guilty. Maybe 10 y.o. is too young.

I guess we share in part of the blame if we say they should have came and got a parent. . .we weren't there.

[Seeker]

Ah I see a little better now.

I would suggest that your guilt over these facts are not warranted. The fact remains that these boys next door have repeatedly been causing trouble.

We all read of children going out and killing other people.... a recent one here in California...

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_8520003?nclick_check=1

We all wonder what we can do about such tragic situations. We wonder about the child's parents in this article above situation. How do they feel?

How would your neighbors parents feel if their 13-year-old son did this to another of your neighbors?

How would you feel knowing that if you warned these people that their sons may be headed for real trouble if the current behavior does not stop?

[maat55]

I can't remember the name of it, but Bill O'Reilly has a book that deals with this issue. The book gives examples of how to deal with bullies. One thing you might think of is, to tell the 13 year old yourself, in a very sincere way, not to hit your son again.

Maybe he will go to his dad and the dad will be ready to discuss the issue when you tell him that, if he doesn't curb his son, you will. Check into your rights first, but I would hit a women to protect my family. If I saw the 13 year old abuse my child, I would grab him by the ear and drag him to his father and demand retrobution.

[cschin4]

First, take a deep breath. You do not have to pack up and move out of the neighborhood. It happened is done and over so don't make this out to the worst thing that ever happened to your family or your child.
A 13 yr old should not be hitting anybody, except maybe another 13 yr old under certain rare conditions. In the above scenario, he should keep his hand to himself.
I would talk to the neighbor and tell him that if this 13 yr old ever lays a hand again on any of your children, that you will indeed get the Police involved and press charges.
As for playing with the younger children, you will need to decide if that can continue under supervision or if the older is likely to be involved. You may decide this incident is just an abberation or decide just not to let your children play with any of their children.
I don't know where the kids congregate but you may need to erect a fence. And, if the kids meet at the playground, the 10 yr old should be told to stay away from them. However, kids forget past grievances pretty quickly so if he does play with them along the way, I wouldn't get too upset about it.
As for the 5 yr old, he needs to be supervised by an adult when outside. He is not old enough to stand up for himself nor should he be expected too. So, keep him close to home.
Anyway, if you generally get along with the neighbors and they are decent people, I don't think you need to go to WWWIII over this, just make clear that his child is to keep his hands off of yours.

[PrincessPerky]

Hitting is NOT ok, even if your son was teasing the boy, hitting is NOT ok...I don't care if kids do tend to do it, it is still not ok.

You are not to blame for someone else's kids hitting yours, not in the slightest. I do not feel a 10 year old is too young to be alone for a short time, though in your current living situation you may want to change for a time. (though I would think taking time off work to be there for the hour, putzing in the garage where you can watch would help more than removing him)

I also do not feel a 10 year old should have to know how to deal with someone who hits over an accidental injury...folks get hurt all the time, kids and adults cannot react with fists if we want to claim civilization.

13, 10, 5, 6 don't care the age, hitting is not a solution to getting accidentally hurt, did it make the 6 year olds finger feel better?

While you may not be able to talk with the father you prolly can talk with the boys...your own should be told this is not his fault nor yours (if you feel guilty how do you think you are making him feel? Don't turn him or you into a victim), though there are some ways to avoid a situation in the future (leave the vicinity? not hang out with them? practice answering rudeness with 'sugar')

And the neighbor boys should be told under no uncertain terms do you feel hitting was an acceptable solution to a minor injury, and if they cannot control themselves you WILL be calling the police. Sorry, I know police are busy, but if no one steps in to teach correct behavior kids will have to be taken care of. Assault is not ok just because the perpetrator is under 18.

After the talks, then you let em play while you are around (but not hovering), watch what happens if fists are raised step in, if words are exchanged make a mental note and speak to your own about their reaction to it. If play is 'lopsided' again speak to your own about how they dealt with it, and how they could change if needed. Not easy, and very time consuming, but necessary IMO, kids need help understanding just what they can and cannot do, as well as what they can and cannot ignore. (consider the number of folks living in abusive situations right now, because getting hit was 'no big deal')

I am in general a hands off parent, but if the safety of a child is at stake I believe in stepping in.

[JanH]

Good advice here. If you don't want to take the little guy with you to talk to the neighbor, you could take a picture of his black eye. We had a next door neighbor family once that had an older brother about that age that played with knives. Like throwing them at trees and stuff. We ended up limiting our kids' playing time with that bunch. With closer supervision by us. And no time could they play with them when older brother was involved.

[Broken Arrow]

Scanner, I want to make it clear that I don't think you or your wife should feel bad as parents.... No parents ever plan for their children to get hurt, and for better or worse, regardless of the rhyme or reason, these things happen sometimes....

I also want to make it clear that although I love my kids very much, I'm not exactly a model parent or anything.... So, please take this advice for what it's worth.

I try to teach all my kids (even my girl) the following:

1. It's OK and it's normal to be scared. Everybody gets scared, including me.

2. Unless you're wrong, it's OK to stand your ground. In fact, you should do so, no matter how many times someone knocks you down.

3. Unless you're wrong, to never take a hit or even a nasty word from anyone. Fight back if you have to.

The basic goal is that I am trying to help them develop an unwaivering sense of inner strength. You see, shiners will heal, but the psychological damage from such incidents is something they can carry well into their adulthood.... Taking a hit isn't physically as painful as it is to associate it with a sense of loss or defeat, and again, such sentiments can negatively impact their development.

As parents, we must never let that happen.

Now, this is the part that maybe I won't win Father of the Year award, but they need to understand that it's actually... normal... to get beat down sometimes. Like being in a car accident, you hope it never happens, but deep down and no matter how much we may want to deny it, we also know it will probably happen sooner or later. Therefore, I think it's ridiculous to try to shelter children from ever being picked on or hit. Face it: Even as adults, they may run into that.

And when it does happen, they need to fully understand that it doesn't mean they are any less or weaker as a person. In fact, any fool can throw a punch, but it takes strength to take a hit and remain resolute as ever, if not more so. They also need to understand that a punch can never break one's own inner spirit. That is something only we ourselves can break, and ONLY if WE choose to do so. Not them.

That said, it would also be wise to try to evade a hit all together. Fight back as a last resort, but if it comes to that, don't hesitate and don't hold back.

In practical terms, sometimes my kids fight each other. Rather than just breaking them up, I try to turn it around into a lesson in conflict resolution. I suggest ways that they can settle their disputes diplomatically, chastise them if they are unjust, and praise them when they are justly standing up for themselves.

Perhaps most important of all, I also encourage all of my kids to stand up to me. For most children, I think the father is typically the most imposing figure at that point. Not just that, but I can be very fierce, and they are aware of my training as a fighter. So... I guess I can understand if they are a little scared of me sometimes, even though I don't try to scare them or anything.... So, if they can learn to stand up to me, I believe they will do just fine when they go out into the real world. After all, the conflict resolution strategies you learn growing up are often times what we rely on as adults, even if they are more refined and sophisticated.

When I share these lesson, I'm never deliberately harsh or cold towards them, trying to force them to be "tough". Rather, I always try to be as comforting and compassionate as I can when explaining these things to them. I believe telling your kids how much faith you have in them is far better than trying to scare them into being "tough" somehow. True inner strength comes from caring for someone, not fearing from them.

Anyway, like any other parent, I do the best that I can and hope that that will be good enough. I'm rambling, but hope that may have helped somehow.

[sweeps]

That was a great post, BA.

[Broken Arrow]

Thanks. Hope it didn't come across as being too self-righteous and idealistic....

Parenting, in practice, always end up being less-than-ideal....