Having Children Too Soon Will Make You Poor

[SnoopyCool]

Originally Posted by Exile

We all know--and perhaps you are one yourself--of people who wished they had waited before having children or not had them at all but just didn't think about it at the time, or had kids because they were pressured by family or because all their friends were doing it.

Don't children deserve a decent start in life and parents who are fully aware and committed to their responsibilities before hand?

Exile - this isn't "at" you, but in response to your statement alone.

I believe that everyone deserves a "decent start" in life, but shame, shame, shame on those people who wish they did not have the children they did. How could you look at your child and say "I wish you were never born"? Or even secretly harbor that feeling? I can't imagine that.

Solve your problems, don't blame it on the children that didn't ask to be born to you or in whatever situation.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

There are a lot of people who regret kids my MIL is one. She hates my FIL so she wishes DH wasn't born then they wouldn't be married, etc.

And I have about 3-4 more friends the same. Lots of parents got "married" cause they got pregnant. And they resent what they had to give up to do so.

But hey it's life right?

[lmclanahan@verizon.net]

Originally Posted by Scanner

Cicy,



A lot of this depends on the religious beleifs too. The Catholic Church for instance, beleives the sole reason for marriage to exist is to pro-create, finaances be damned (no pun intended).

So marriage at 21, followed by 8 kids is a life devoted to God.

Wow, I just *cannot* let this one go by! We converted to the Catholic Church two years ago, and this statement is just NOT TRUE. Sorry, but this is how they get a bad rap!
The Catholic Church *is* against most forms of artificial birth control, especially the pill, because a fertilized egg (i.e. a miniature human being who already has a soul in their belief) may be discarded by its intended action. However, you are free to use NFP, which is about 99% effective, when used correctly, even *better* than the pill.
The whole gist is that you and your spouse are supposed to talk about and pray about this *monthly* and decide at that point if this is a good time to open the opportunity for life. If you think it is, and you have no serious reasons for not having a child, you go ahead. If you have a serious reason, INCLUDING FINANCIAL PROBLEMS, you are able to use NFP for that cycle, without fear of sin, or any kind of disapproval from the Catholic Church.
Your statement is simply wrong, sorry, but it is, and I cannot let it go unchallenged.
There are TONS of Catholic members who use NFP and do not have 8 or more children. I personally know at least 5 women right now who would LOVE to be blessed, and the Lord has just said no. For someone to look at their families and judge them, is so sad. They are open to life, but it is not to be. :-(
Many Catholic families *would* be larger, but they have secondary infertility. I am hoping right now that I am not one of them. :-( Your comment hurt me. I would love to have eight children, and it may not be in the cards for me. I will be 35 in June, and my oldest is now 14 1/2.

For the record, I married at 19, had our first a year later, next at 25, next at 32 and my youngest just turned two. We were very low income for years, but we stuck to it and bought a house after saving our money. Luckily, we bought just before the boom. Our houses' latest worth, even with the 15% losses we have seen here, is more than double what we paid. We drive used cars and shop at thrift stores. We have done well, our average income is about $45,000. We live in MD, which is expensive. We don't have a huge retirement fund, but my dh just became eligible for a 401K at work, which matches to 4%, and 50% for the next 2%. We plan on funding it fully.
My teenager is more expensive now, especially since we homeschool, which means lots of gas expenses for driving (no free bus) and classes/curriculum cost a lot too. He will start college classes next year at the local community college, and hopefully have the better part of an AA degree when he *graduates* from high school. He plans on being an engineer, as he likes to work with robotics.
We have a lot of other expenses too, but we keep them as low as we can, and go on with life. You plan for what you can, but you can't anticipate everything! I would never have planned my life like this at 19. I never knew it could be so great! :-)

Lea

[SnoopyCool]

Originally Posted by LivingAlmostLarge

But hey it's life right?

Respectfully, no.

[pearlieq]

Originally Posted by SnoopyCool

I believe that everyone deserves a "decent start" in life, but shame, shame, shame on those people who wish they did not have the children they did. How could you look at your child and say "I wish you were never born"? Or even secretly harbor that feeling? I can't imagine that.

This is why we can never have an honest discussion of this issue.

There is too much stigma attached to admitting you regret having (more) children and too many people willing to very harshly judge someone who might feel that way.

I think it hurts us--it keeps us from having a discussion where we can explore all sides of an issue and learn from each other's experiences.

It not incompatible to love your children and still realize you would have been happier if you hadn't been a parent or hadn't had as many kids.

Don't be so quick to condem, and especially to condem so absolutely.

[cptacek]

Originally Posted by lmclanahan@verizon.net

Wow, I just *cannot* let this one go by! We converted to the Catholic Church two years ago, and this statement is just NOT TRUE. Sorry, but this is how they get a bad rap!
The Catholic Church *is* against most forms of artificial birth control, especially the pill, because a fertilized egg (i.e. a miniature human being who already has a soul in their belief) may be discarded by its intended action. However, you are free to use NFP, which is about 99% effective, when used correctly, even *better* than the pill.
The whole gist is that you and your spouse are supposed to talk about and pray about this *monthly* and decide at that point if this is a good time to open the opportunity for life. If you think it is, and you have no serious reasons for not having a child, you go ahead. If you have a serious reason, INCLUDING FINANCIAL PROBLEMS, you are able to use NFP for that cycle, without fear of sin, or any kind of disapproval from the Catholic Church.
Your statement is simply wrong, sorry, but it is, and I cannot let it go unchallenged.
There are TONS of Catholic members who use NFP and do not have 8 or more children. I personally know at least 5 women right now who would LOVE to be blessed, and the Lord has just said no. For someone to look at their families and judge them, is so sad. They are open to life, but it is not to be. :-(
Many Catholic families *would* be larger, but they have secondary infertility. I am hoping right now that I am not one of them. :-( Your comment hurt me. I would love to have eight children, and it may not be in the cards for me. I will be 35 in June, and my oldest is now 14 1/2.

Thank you lmclanahan. I've heard this so many times I tend to let it go without challenge, but you are absolutely right.

[GoodBuyGirl]

I think kids make people more responsible with their money.
I have always believed that only rich people plan when they will have kids.
which in my opinion takes a lot of fun out of life.

[SnoopyCool]

Originally Posted by pearlieq

This is why we can never have an honest discussion of this issue.

That was my honest, knee-jerk reaction. That was as honest as I can be.

Originally Posted by pearlieq

There is too much stigma attached to admitting you regret having (more) children and too many people willing to very harshly judge someone who might feel that way.

Probably, but who stands up for the child whose parents blame their miserable life on him?

Originally Posted by pearlieq

I think it hurts us--it keeps us from having a discussion where we can explore all sides of an issue and learn from each other's experiences.

There, I may agree, but only because I wasn't tactful enough. We could all use more tact, I suppose.

Originally Posted by pearlieq

It not incompatible to love your children and still realize you would have been happier if you hadn't been a parent or hadn't had as many kids.

That's like pipe-dreaming. To quote Kip "Like anyone could even know that."

Originally Posted by pearlieq

Don't be so quick to condem, and especially to condem so absolutely.

It seems as though you are the judgement police. I'm sorry for my offensiveness. Really, I should have been nicer or more thoughtful in my response. That being said, I'd like to quote from a different post where you pulled out the badge and wrote a ticket on judgementality, as that poster's response would be more eloquent than mine:

"Different people feel differntly and the question is an emtionally charged one in the first place. I am curious as to where the disappointment stems from? Did you not want people to express how they felt? Would you have been more pleased if no one responded in fear of perhaps offending someone? I don't think people where attacking at all, expressing strong feelings, yes. But don't you have strong feelings about your children?

I have no desire to offend, so please let me know how I could share the depth of my feelings without offending. With money or finance it is much easier than children, I can just shrug my shoulders and say oh well, it's just money. I could never do that about the well being of my children...so I am really at a loss. Since I really appreciate the support and advice I get here, I would really like to know. I don't want to be afraid to share what I feel for fear of offending.

There may honestly be no way to do this too....you can't please everyone..."

[pearlieq]

Originally Posted by SnoopyCool

It seems as though you are the judgement police. I'm sorry for my offensiveness. Really, I should have been nicer or more thoughtful in my response. That being said, I'd like to quote from a different post where you pulled out the badge and wrote a ticket on judgementality, as that poster's response would be more eloquent than mine:

...

I have no desire to offend, so please let me know how I could share the depth of my feelings without offending. With money or finance it is much easier than children, I can just shrug my shoulders and say oh well, it's just money. I could never do that about the well being of my children...so I am really at a loss. Since I really appreciate the support and advice I get here, I would really like to know. I don't want to be afraid to share what I feel for fear of offending.

I have trouble taking the label of "judgment police" from someone yelling "shame, shame, shame" at others. Who are you to heap shame on anyone?

What I find offensive is the push to impose your value system on other people. It's perfectly OK to love your children, to not be able to imagine your life without them, and to have the idea of regretting them elude you. Perfectly normal and probably typical of many parents.

But it's not OK, in my book, to call someone a bad person for feeling a different way. If that makes me the "judgment police" then hand over my badge and tiara!

[SnoopyCool]

Originally Posted by pearlieq

I have trouble taking the label of "judgment police" from someone yelling "shame, shame, shame" at others. Who are you to heap shame on anyone?

I wasn't yelling. Out of respect for Jeffrey, I will not yell on this board. Shame comes from within, regardless of whether I say it or not. I can't make anyone feel shame on an anonymous forum. What power have I? BTW, a heap is 4 shames. Learned that in Algebra I.

Originally Posted by pearlieq

What I find offensive is the push to impose your value system on other people.

What I find offensive is a small child abused. He can't script a rebuttle to the phrase "You ruined my life." What matters if an adult guilty of that gets offended because I say "shame" cubed? That is disastrous, a bad start in a child's life. Therefore, I will not concede.

Originally Posted by pearlieq

It's perfectly OK to love your children,

Whew... thank you. Is it perfectly okay to tell them they ruined your life?

Originally Posted by pearlieq

But it's not OK, in my book, to call someone a bad person for feeling a different way.

I agree! Nowhere did I say someone was a bad person. Everyone feels shame at some time and surely we are not all bad people. I think that parents who tell their children they are the cause for their unhappiness are parents who call their children bad persons. That is not okay in my book, and it ranks higher than walking on eggshells.

Originally Posted by pearlieq

If that makes me the "judgment police" then hand over my badge and tiara!

C'mon... where do the police have tiaras?

[sweeps]

Snoopy, I think Pearlie was referring to thoughts, not actions. Everyone has thoughts and feelings that they aren't proud of and might regret. It doesn't mean you're a bad person.

This reminds me of that whole thing about Helen Kirwan-Taylor.

[ThriftoRama]

I'm having my first baby on Monday.
I'm 33, married for 6 years. Own a home that's paid for, have a career, a decent chunk in retirement and have already opened and maxxed out a 529 plan and I still don't feel prepared.

You just don't have any way of knowing how much kids are going to cost or how it will impact your life. We're just going to do the best week can and hope the kid doesn't totally derail us financially, emotionally or otherwise.

[pearlieq]

Originally Posted by sweeps

Snoopy, I think Pearlie was referring to thoughts, not actions. Everyone has thoughts and feelings that they aren't proud of and might regret. It doesn't mean you're a bad person.

That's definitely what I was getting at.

I absolutely, 100%, would NEVER think it was OK for a parent to tell a kid "you ruined my life". I would consider that downright abusive. And also BS. We're responsible for playing the hand we're dealt--if you're blaming a kid for ruining your life, you're totally abdicating your responsibilty as an adult.

But I also think it's OK for people to acknowledge that their life may have taken a different path, and that the road not taken is kind of attractive.

I knew a girl in high school who got pregnant at 16. She had her baby and raises her as best she can. I have no doubt she loves her daugther with every fiber of her being. But she also will lecture any young girl she can get her hands on about the importance of birth control.

[pearlieq]

Originally Posted by sweeps

This reminds me of that whole thing about Helen Kirwan-Taylor.

Holy bananas! I just read that article.

I'll fully admit that elementary school orchestra concerts leave me practically suicidal and I've never known exactly what I was supposed to do with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle figure thrust into my hand.

But what, uh, does this lady actually DO with her kids? That's quite a list of "I don't likes". What does she like? Or are they just accessories? Did she just have them because she thought she was supposed to?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by lmclanahan@verizon.net

The Catholic Church *is* against most forms of artificial birth control, especially the pill, because a fertilized egg (i.e. a miniature human being who already has a soul in their belief) may be discarded by its intended action.

This is the argument that the Church uses to oppose stem cell research which has the potential to save and improve the quality of countless number of lives. Yet it has no problem with fertility clinics, where unused fertilized eggs are also discarded. How selective.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Uh, holy cow. I cannot imagine being like that woman. But I like walking with my dogs, my DH and enjoying our life. I guess it's boring.

[cptacek]

Originally Posted by Exile

Yet it has no problem with fertility clinics, where unused fertilized eggs are also discarded. How selective.

This statement is wrong. It is against church teaching to use fertility clinics like this, particularly when using sperm or eggs from donors, but even when using sperm and eggs from the husband and wife. Medication and the like to encourage healthy egg production or sperm production is ok, though.

I knew this, but to be absolutely sure, I just looked in my "Catechism of the Catholic Church" book. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger gave approval for this book to be printed. That is, the pope before he became the pope.

What some Catholics DO vs. what the church teaches, of course, is sometimes different, so that may be why you were confused. I'm sure there is no Catholic bashing going on here, right?