January 1, no smoking!

[feh]

Originally Posted by bjl584

They could do these things on their own without Big Brother watching if they had morality, and a sense of self and servatude to their fellow man. However, we are increasingly becoming a self serving, moraless, and Godless society.

Your assumption that a Godless society implies one of self-serving people without morals is troubling.

[bjl584]

Originally Posted by feh

Your assumption that a Godless society implies one of self-serving people without morals is troubling.

Troubling to who?

[feh]

Originally Posted by bjl584

Troubling to who?

I find it troubling. Decent and respectable behavior is not determined by one's religious beliefs, or lack thereof.

[bjl584]

On a case by case basis you are correct, however, as a broad based argument I feel that there is a strong correlation between the way that religion is continually being taken out of public life and the eroding of our morals and values in our society.

[feh]

Originally Posted by bjl584

On a case by case basis you are correct, however, as a broad based argument I feel that there is a strong correlation between the way that religion is continually being taken out of public life and the eroding of our morals and values in our society.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this topic, unless you have some evidence with which to convince me.

If you wish to continue this topic, we should move it elsewhere...

[sweeps]

Originally Posted by bjl584

I feel that there is a strong correlation between the way that religion is continually being taken out of public life and the eroding of our morals and values in our society.

I would kindly point out that correlation does not imply causation.

[bjl584]

The only evidence that I can give you is to take a look around at the world that we live in. Did your grandparents lock their doors at night, worry that their children would be shot when they went to school, watch nightly on the local news about murders in their town, etc. so on and so on?

[mom-from-missouri]

We have pulled away from finances, but I will point out,...

One of the reasons our country was formed was for religous freedom. The first admendment protects that right for us.

Now, we have people wanting to take God out of the pledge, off the dollar and we can't say prayer in school or public places anymore. (when I was a kid, if we wanted to say prayer we either went to a different room or the ones who objected left the room)-now it can't even be on school property.

When I was in 2nd grade, we learned the 10 commandments in school. Even if a kid was not a "christian", they were good rules to live by. If a child is not taught values at home, and they can no longer be taught at school-where will they be taught and by whom??

We took God out of the classroom and are handing out condems instead. We have nudity and sex on the internet and TV.
We have leaders of our country having affairs (What would Abe Lincoln think?)

It seems like we keep taking out a good and we let in a bad.

Regarding morals:::When my dad graduated, in a class of 250, they had no pregnancies. I graduated in a class of 147 and we had 6. DD1 graduated (sort of-she had an early out) in a class of 76 with 10. One reason mine are not in public school is because last year they had 4 6th graders who were preg. From subbing I can tell you that this school has at least 12 who are preg. This is a town of less than 3000 people.

Every generation degrate one more level. What will it be like for our grandchildren?

Some people don't believe in God. That is their right to believe so. However, you can still not believe in God and have morals. Yet, many don't as they figure they have no one higher up to answer to. But, what if they are wrong? By the time they find out they are wrong-its too late for them.

Years ago our minster read an article from the paper regarding a study. Over 72% of the men in a New York prison stated when surveyed that they did not believe in God. And out of that 72% almost half of them stated that was probably one reason they committed their crime-they only had to answer to man for it. So from that group at least 72% of the "non belivers" had poor or no morals.

My neighbor doesn't believe in God. Yet, she is the kindest, nicest person. And she has morals and raised her children to also. So no, its not all. And people who do believe it God don't always act it. So, it does go both ways.

[sweeps]

Originally Posted by bjl584

The only evidence that I can give you is to take a look around at the world that we live in. Did your grandparents lock their doors at night, worry that their children would be shot when they went to school, watch nightly on the local news about murders in their town, etc. so on and so on?

My grandparents didn't watch nightly news because they didn't have a TV.

Seriously though, a couple factors at work here are (1) The massive amount of news coverage we're bombarded with daily really blows incidents out of proportion. Years ago you might not have heard about a murder one town over. Now you might hear over and over about a murder that happened across the country. (2) People live in predominantly urban and suburban areas nowadays. Compressing many people in a smaller space is naturally going to cause more daily interactions and conflicts with other people -- and opportunities for crime -- than when people lived in a rural setting and their closest neighbor was half a mile away.

[ginene]

I absolutely hate smoke but if it is legal to smoke then why ban it in bars? I don't agree with people smoking around kids but in night life and on the streets, to each its own.

[PrincessPerky]

Originally Posted by ginene

I absolutely hate smoke but if it is legal to smoke then why ban it in bars? I don't agree with people smoking around kids but in night life and on the streets, to each its own.

Because non pregnant I want to be able to go to a bar..but with smokers there, I can't.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by ginene

I absolutely hate smoke but if it is legal to smoke then why ban it in bars? I don't agree with people smoking around kids but in night life and on the streets, to each its own.

Because the nearly 80% majority of adults who don't smoke should have the freedom to go to a bar or a restaurant or a casino or anywhere else.

[sweeps]

I'm a nonsmoker and love the smoking ban.. but just to play devil's advocate:

Shouldn't a bar or restaurant owner have a say over how to run his establishment? If he's fine with excluding 80% of his potential customers by allowing smoking, and the patrons who choose to go in there are adults who understand and accept the health risk of first- and second-hand smoke, what gives the government the right to stop him?

This is not the same as banning smoking in a government building, where people do not have a choice but to do business there.

[disneysteve]

sweeps - There are a great many things that the government regulates about how businesses operate. Should a restaurant owner be able to decide he doesn't want to follow the health code? We're all adults. We can decide if we want to take the risk of eating there. Maybe a busy nightclub decides it is too expensive to install sprinklers and fire extinguishers. Should that be okay?

We know much more about the dangers of smoking and secondhand smoke than we used to. That warrants stricter rules and regulations regarding where people are allowed to smoke.

Bar owners can't decide who they can serve alcohol to. They need to observe local laws and limit alcohol consumption to customers 21 and over. Sure, alcohol is legal, but there are still all kinds of restrictions on it's use. Tobacco is no different. It is a legal substance but there are restrictions on when, where and by whom it can be used.

[JanH]

One of the towns here banned smoking in restaurants and the bar owners got upset. However, we love it in the restaurants. Some bar owners set up outside patio areas with TVs that they can use for smoking patrons. I love being able to smell and taste my food and not the smoke left behind. Even with good ventilation systems, I still seem to have a problem with smoke. And it really affects my DD. And it was difficult to find a restaurant where we wouldn't smell it. Until the ban. I think after a year or two, one of the bar owners closed, but admitted that he was moving--it had nothing to do with the smoking ban. In fact, I think he said it hadn't affected him that much. Having grown up with a dad who smoked a pipe part of my life, I consider it a form of pollution. And pollution in our area is regulated. I had a friend who smoked and I never preached to her about it. It was totally her freedom to do so. I just can't hang around the home of someone who does. And I don't want to pay to have a nice dinner out and go home feeling cruddy. And if the ban keeps my DD from getting sick from going out to eat and maybe missing school or something, then I totally agree with it.

[cicy33]

Well, as the original poster I wanted to report on how our local business is doing. My best friend and her husband own a local restaurant here with a huge bar. Surprisingly their business has INCREASED. We were talking about it the other night. And came to the conclusion most people do not like the smell. So now those people can come out and relax and enjoy a drink without the cigarettes. For myself, I love being able to relax and not have to have someone come in and sit and chain smoke next to me. But my dh does smoke, he just goes outside.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by cicy33

Surprisingly their business has INCREASED.

I don't find that surprising at all. Most smokers I know prefer smoke-free restaurants. They don't like breathing in other people's smoke while eating anymore than non-smokers do.

Also, the smoking bans make a place more appealing to non-smokers who previously avoided places where smoking was allowed. Prior to our state ban, there were maybe 10 restaurants that we frequented. Since the ban went into effect, we have tried a couple dozen places that we had never been to before because they previously allowed smoking. We also went back to some places that we had tried once pre-ban and liked except for the smoke. Now we can go there and enjoy ourselves without getting sickened.

As I mentioned earlier, many restaurants, even those with large bars, have found they are now attracting a different demographic - families - who previously wouldn't have ever considered taking their kids to a smoky bar.