Frugality is a tough sell

[ren]

Oh, I have a feeling this thread is going to be very theraputic for me.

One of my roommates... I cannot discuss money with her. She makes absolutely hideous financial decisions that are hurting her chances to live the life she wants long term (home ownership, retirement, etc.) so she can have what she wants now.

• She has a car loan and a motorcycle loan (car is an SUV bought used, bike was bought new).
• The SUV's radiator needs replacing, so instead of shelling out the $600 or so it would cost to replace it, she's decided she's going to get another car, despite the fact that she owes about $2000 more than the SUV is worth.
• She ran her credit cards up over a couple years to the tune of about $4500 and did a consolidation loan last spring.
• She has since run up another $4500 on her cards.
• She has 0% financing on her mattress that she's not going to have paid off by the end of the 0% period.
• She regularly pays $250+ a month for her cell phone, but won't switch to a plan with more minutes because 'those cost too much'.
• She's going on a week long cruise with a friend to the Bahamas next spring, also financed.
• And her latest brilliant plan is that she's taken out another $5000 loan so she can get a breast enlargement.

Yes, she's financing a boob job. This last loan will put her in debt roughly equal to her annual gross income; she'll probably exceed it if she does end up getting a new car. This is before she starts planning her dream wedding scheduled for spring 2008. Her fiance is just as bad as she is. I really hope they see the light at some point, but I've tried talking to her (well, I tried pointing out that now might not be the time for the boob job, but she 'needs' her new boobs for the cruise) and she doesn't want to hear about it.

In fact, a couple months ago I was saying how buying a new computer was really hurting me (the old one was out of warranty and the fan was going) and she said, "Yeah, but you can't complain, because your car is paid off and you don't have any real expenses like I do." I had to bite my tongue so hard not to say that I made a decision to live within my means instead of living in debt, because I couldn't live the way she does. I may be a 'judgemental b****', but at least I can sleep at night.

So I don't talk about money with her. She doesn't want to hear it, I get frustrated, it's not worth it. I just make sure to cash her check for rent the day I get it, because even she admits that any money in her checking account will be spent.

I feel bad for ranting, but watching an otherwise intelligent, disciplined person (she used to be a Marine and she's fabulously good at her job now) dig a hole like this and then tell herself that this is something that happened to her, not something she did to herself, is so very frustrating. I'd get her a Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman book for Christmas, but she'd probably beat the crap out of me.

[tinapbeana]

well, ren, i think in a lot of ways debt is like alcoholism: folks don't acknowledge what's going on or see the need for help until they've hit rock bottom.

being able to see one's situation clearly without having to hit rock bottom is a definite blessing.

[Ima saver]

I think you should get her Dave's book anyway! Maybe she will read it.

[PRICEPLUS]

Tinapbeana, you are absolutely correct!

[Broken Arrow]

Lots of people think all their financial problems would go away if only they earned more. The reality, however, is as income rises, they just increase their spending to match so they are no better off. The secret for most isn't to earn more but to spend less.

i think in a lot of ways debt is like alcoholism: folks don't acknowledge what's going on or see the need for help until they've hit rock bottom.

Ah, refreshing truth!

[Hot dog]

I have experienced some of the same everyone in my family knows me as being frugal It is a running joke Anyway I experience a lot of jealousy when building my dream house last year from my family. can you imagine your brother or sister building their dream house and telling them no I don't want to go see it and then finally going and not having anything nice to say except it is so big what will you do with all this space My brother in law builds houses and wouldn't once come to see if it was being done right We have since asked if he would put a door knob on for us (we need a drill to go through the metal door ) and his answer is I will only do it when you get a computer for your kids They need one You have a big house and don't even have a computer for your kids I didn't say anything about him buying a boat motorcycle or a motorcycle for his two year old Meanwhile complaining about all the debt they have Anyway he hasn't done it and he is family I will just pay someone I mean it is pretty simple He acts like he is joking but I don't like to ask more than once I am one to always do for myself. Ima i wanna know what you got first place for?

[miclason]

...consider this jingle from a local CC company (loosely translated)

...use me, I want you to use me, take me with you wherever you go, abuse me, I'll pay for you and make you happy, I'm your Evil card....

[tinapbeana]

my credit union let's you 'name' your accounts with them, for your online interface. for instance, one of my checking accounts is 'named' dreamland *grin*, and my account list online shows "Savings", "Checking", and "Dreamland"

well, my sister has a credit card with them, and has named that account "DevilCard"! even better: she works for the credit union!

[miclason]

LOL!...it's supposed to be Aval Card, but Evil Card seems more fitting! :P

[PauletteGoddard]

Oh, and while I am rambling, I can not begin to tell you how anxiety-provoking it is to see grown men throw their credit cards around, buying whatever that comes to mind. On top of that, they did not keep any receipts or use any means to keep track of it. I had to bite my tongue repeatedly over that one.

Alex Steffen said in a presentation I attended on Saturday night that change can only come when one is offered a better system. My frugality is really more interest in energy conservation and independence (to preserve the "non-negotiable way of life"), health care costs elimination through proper diet and exercise (because I am too stupid/lazy to get my salary to rise beyond the costs of health care), and having dollars to further design my lifestyle to one super and sustainable.

Maybe the grown men throw their credit cards around, buying whatever that comes to mind because they don't have the same need I do for a super, sustainable lifestyle -- I have a kid to look after and to mentor. Maybe they already have a super sustainable lifestyle, or maybe they are dinosaurs on the verge of extinction.

[lrjohnson]

For some people I know environmentalism is an easier sell....there are trust fund babies in our College town living very frugally because they are wanting to consume less, own less, use less. I think it's funny and welcome into the frugal fold at the same time. A lot of my frugality is based on focussing on reduced consumption; I don't have debt and could spend more than I do, but I don't choose to, not to deprive myself but to avoid using more "stuff" than I need to.

[amberfocus]

Originally Posted by ren

One of my roommates... I cannot discuss money with her. She makes absolutely hideous financial decisions that are hurting her chances to live the life she wants long term (home ownership, retirement, etc.) so she can have what she wants now.

Word. My roommate, while not in significant debt, does maintain a car that leeches more money per month than rent. We're talking $600 to $700 here. He might as well screw the lease and go live in his car!

Add in the constant influx of shiny new toys and gadgets, and his entire paycheck is POOF! each month.

I just watch and chuckle.

Use your roommate to remind yourself of what you should not be doing, and reinforce that what you're doing is better.

After all, a smart man learns from his own mistakes, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

~mimi

[ren]

Amen, Mimi. I have to admit, I was awfully damn tempted when I found out that my employer gets discounts on several brands of new cars, but then I think about how spendy roommate has to send half a paycheck a month on her two vehicle loans and go, "Naaaaaaaaaah."

[MonkeyMama]

Originally Posted by lrjohnson

For some people I know environmentalism is an easier sell....there are trust fund babies in our College town living very frugally because they are wanting to consume less, own less, use less. I think it's funny and welcome into the frugal fold at the same time. A lot of my frugality is based on focussing on reduced consumption; I don't have debt and could spend more than I do, but I don't choose to, not to deprive myself but to avoid using more "stuff" than I need to.

OMG I wish. That is my other pet peeve with people around me of late - no respect for environment int he least. I honestly think frugalness would be an asier sell around here. Okay frankly neither would fly. Everyone aorund here wants to consume more, own more. Aaaaah, maybe I should move.

[MonkeyMama]

It's not what you make, but what you keep. I just saw that somewhere around here and sums it up pretty well. Very wise words. I think that is my new motto.

[tgavin71]

Of course frugality is a tough sell. Just look at what your up against. Marketing budgets of billions of dollars bombarding us with messages.

[Duchesse]

Frugality is an easy sell, as long as you're selling it to a bargain hunter.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by ren

Oh, I have a feeling this thread is going to be very theraputic for me.

One of my roommates... I cannot discuss money with her. She makes absolutely hideous financial decisions that are hurting her chances to live the life she wants long term (home ownership, retirement, etc.) so she can have what she wants now.

• She has a car loan and a motorcycle loan (car is an SUV bought used, bike was bought new).
• The SUV's radiator needs replacing, so instead of shelling out the $600 or so it would cost to replace it, she's decided she's going to get another car, despite the fact that she owes about $2000 more than the SUV is worth.
• She ran her credit cards up over a couple years to the tune of about $4500 and did a consolidation loan last spring.
• She has since run up another $4500 on her cards.
• She has 0% financing on her mattress that she's not going to have paid off by the end of the 0% period.
• She regularly pays $250+ a month for her cell phone, but won't switch to a plan with more minutes because 'those cost too much'.
• She's going on a week long cruise with a friend to the Bahamas next spring, also financed.
• And her latest brilliant plan is that she's taken out another $5000 loan so she can get a breast enlargement.

Yes, she's financing a boob job. This last loan will put her in debt roughly equal to her annual gross income; she'll probably exceed it if she does end up getting a new car. This is before she starts planning her dream wedding scheduled for spring 2008. Her fiance is just as bad as she is. I really hope they see the light at some point, but I've tried talking to her (well, I tried pointing out that now might not be the time for the boob job, but she 'needs' her new boobs for the cruise) and she doesn't want to hear about it.

In fact, a couple months ago I was saying how buying a new computer was really hurting me (the old one was out of warranty and the fan was going) and she said, "Yeah, but you can't complain, because your car is paid off and you don't have any real expenses like I do." I had to bite my tongue so hard not to say that I made a decision to live within my means instead of living in debt, because I couldn't live the way she does. I may be a 'judgemental b****', but at least I can sleep at night.

So I don't talk about money with her. She doesn't want to hear it, I get frustrated, it's not worth it. I just make sure to cash her check for rent the day I get it, because even she admits that any money in her checking account will be spent.

I feel bad for ranting, but watching an otherwise intelligent, disciplined person (she used to be a Marine and she's fabulously good at her job now) dig a hole like this and then tell herself that this is something that happened to her, not something she did to herself, is so very frustrating. I'd get her a Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman book for Christmas, but she'd probably beat the crap out of me.

I have heard about such cases but I honestly thought those were exagerations for making a point. Honestly, I have a hard time believing that people like these actually DO exist.

Having grown up in a socialist system (Eastern Europe), I am grateful for one thing today: that the system had trained us to be happy with less and to know how to have major fun without consuming.
I am simply used to "less" in terms of material things and thankfully, I never fell pray to that post-socialism material hunger that a lot of people in those countries acquired after socialism was demolished and the consumerist system attacked.
I like smaller houses (I would hate having to deal with the upkeep of a ginormous McMansion, the kind you see everywhere in the US. - let alone that most of them are bad taste and poor quality). I like fewer (but better) clothes. We do not want a second car. I love, love, love public transportation - what a luxury to have someone else drive the train while you read fancy-schmency, mind-opening books without worrying about traffic or wasted time.

Yes, frugality has many facets. Unfortunately, Americans are conditioned to equate fun with consuming and shopping - which makes for a pretty sad society overall - but a darn comfortable one for those few who can use its overall prosperity to lead a reasonably coushy life without consuming like mad.
This PROVIDED they have a close group of friends and family with stable local ties and similar lifestyle with whom to share quality of life.
This can be hard because ...well...Americans no longer form true "local ties" and if you are an immigrant trying to integrate into the larger US culture, the system will eventually suck you in.
Americans' friends and family move at the drop of a hat if some corporation promises them 100 dollars more a month at the opposite corner of the country. So you end up getting your kicks from shopping, consuming and acquiring - just like everyone else.

The alternative: bring your family and friends from the part of the world you're coming from and live happily ever after.

[PrincessPerky]

You gotta find the right trigger....everyone has there own, but no one will be enlightened without the right one.

some people in AA meetings talk about what made them 'see the light' and for every person there there is a new stroy, I think the same is true of frugality, for every non consumer there are several new reasons to be such..untill a person sees their reason they wont change.

[ren]

Originally Posted by syracusa

I have heard about such cases but I honestly thought those were exagerations for making a point. Honestly, I have a hard time believing that people like these actually DO exist.

Oh no, she's quite real. Had her pre-op for the boob job on Friday.

I agree with the point you make about having a local network to depend on -- my family may be 2000+ miles away, but I have been very fortunate to make good friends here. They give me something to do other than spend money on useless crap.