Who are "those people"?

[DivaJen]

I just have to ask - how many people here know that many people who are taking advantage of the system, getting something for nothing, lazy, more interested in handouts than working, etc?

Generalizations get tossed about on these forums and elsewhere about "these people" but I'm wondering how many of us see that as the rule and not the exception when it comes to people we encounter in a meaningful way that are poor, or less fortunate. I don't mean the person in front of us at the grocery store whose situation we don't know. I mean people we know - we know where they live, where they work (if they do), their siatuation with regards to children and/or a partner, and so forth.

If you have these kinds of people in your life, are they the rule? The exception? Do you know enough of "those people" to say one way or the other?

I honestly don't know anyone like that. The poor students I have had come from working one and two parent families.

[EikoU]

I know a couple of "those people". Some are close friends of the family and some are just acquaintances. They are all able bodied people on welfare and section 8. They work off the books for money and pay close to nothing for rent. I understand why they do it but some people don't see it the same way as I do since I've grown up in the "ghetto" and am still here.

[Snoopy2645]

I personally am close to 2 people like that the only thing that irks me about is they live MUCH better than dh & I & they are both pros at working the system & I have been friends with them each for over 5yrs & the entire time they have been working the system. It just to me dont seem right I had a dd at 18 & worked ft & went to school & bought my trailer & paid my own way never got any help so its kinda sickening some people just take advantage of the system. My beliefs are you had the kids get a job & support them I did it so I know anyone can!!!

[jacquelynrose]

Yes, these people do exist. My Best Friend filed Bankruptcy and before she did her & her husband purchased a HUGE Screen TV, Car, Entertainment System and filed just in time to not have that stuff removed from their presence. This person also threatened to sue her husband for everything he has including Child Support & Alimony if they ever divorced. So yes, these people do exist. She also told me this information in person.

[DivaJen]

I'm not questioning whether or not they exist or looking for anecdotes of the one or two people members might know. I'd like to go deeper than that - are these people the rule or the exception? Of all the poor people one might know, or of all the people one might know receiving assistance, are the majority of them what I am calling, in quotes "those people"?

I know of a group of people my church has helped who are getting land from the city on which to set up their tents. They all work and are all required to contribute a certain amount of money each month to the tent community. So yes, they are receiving a handout of sorts (land, assistance from the church) but they are working, too.

I don't know of any friends or famliy currently receiving assitance that I can think of.

[lrjohnson]

Being in the business, I see "those people" everyday. Most of "those people" are "us people." Few are purely taking advantage of the system. In my off the job life, I can't think of any of the people continually referred to as "those people" in derisive tones. I'm sure a fair number of people I know are getting medical assistance due to the lack of affordable health care. All of them would prefer regular insurance, but with preexisting conditions the costs are beyind prohibitive.

(With clients, I found it odd that some people would apply for medical assistance and get tens of thousands worth of medical care a year, but somehow look down on people getting "welfare"-a couple hundred bucks a month.)

Statistics bear out that most folks on aid get off within two years.

Gosh knows it's not the easy living some might think it is. A mother with one child can look forward to a maximum of $555 in cash in my County, with a maximum couple hundred in food stamps. That's if she isn't sanctioned for not meeting Welfare to work rules. And California has higher rates than most places. In Missouri (I picked another state at random) the maximum is $292 for one month for a mom and TWO kids. On the "can you live on 5.15 an hour" thread everone said no way. Even with food stamps welfare is a lot less than federal minimum wage.

I think that for most people on aid we see, we don't realize they are on aid. The exception to the rule, the obvious person taking advantage, is noticeable, so people mistakenly think people on aid are like that.

I fret that people on aid come by this site to seek ways to be frugal, and see references to "those people" and run.

[DivaJen]

I was hoping you would weigh in, knowing your line of work, lrjohnson.

Please know that my use of "those people" is in light of comments I've read and not the way I would want to refer to another person, here or IRL.

[lrjohnson]

Originally Posted by DivaJen

Please know that my use of "those people" is in light of comments I've read and not the way I would want to refer to another person, here or IRL.

I absolutely trusted that you were quoting and not perpetratin'.

[PrincessPerky]

The trouble is that while many are not totally taking advantage, many are comfortably accepting all the help they can. (IMExperience)

I have a friend who is on miscelaneous forms of medical assistance and such, who does not pay her bills.....I don't get how you can buy pop, dinner out, pizza, AC on at 71..while doors are open to move, and yet still complain that the water was shut off cause you didn't pay!

Now are they 'milking the system'? Not exactly. I do know of some who do, but I find the milkers to be an exception, I find the sheer lack of willingness to work/suffer mildly to be the rule.

I can't..that is the dirtiest phrase I have ever heard...I hate the word. "I can't do this to save money, can't do that, can't do anything..so you are stuck on assistance (of some form or another)...meanwhile I do 100 things every day to save (I do qualify for assistance, of many forms) cause I do not want to need it.....now there are 100 more I have currently decided not to do, and thousands I hav't heard of/havn't figured out yet. In one day I could save my friend over 100 dollars, just by doing the things I no longer think about, but she doesn't want to even start.......to hard.....

This doesn't however leave my thinking that all on assistance are stupid/lazy/insert bad term here, my dad used assistance to get a hearing aid once, my mother used food stamps eons ago (trust me we did not have cable at the time!) But I think in general there is too much acceptance of assistance. And too much of a 'well it is only for a short time, I can keep my cable the govt will pay for food'..........

Of all the people I am close with who are on asistance of one form or another...I would say ALL refuse to do simple things to get off it....None go out of thier way to milk, beyond a couple getting paid under the table.......(not like thousands under the table, just minimum wage under the table......that I know of)

[Ima saver]

I know several that are working the system. One is my own adopted daughter. She married a guy she had know for 2 weeks and he immediately got her on the system. She had 2 kids so she got welfare, food stamps, etc. She has never worked since then. she had 3 more kids, all for free.
I know another woman, about 32, who has never worked in her life and has 2 girls in school. She will work for cash, clean houses, but that is all. She moves all around and lives with anyone that will let her in. She is able bodied and can work, but no one in her family ever worked, so she does not plan to.

[melissalt]

There are people who use the system, no doubt, both rich and poor. I have to admit that poverty is an issue I am passionate about, so it is really difficult for me to avoid going off on a million tangents, but I'll do my best! I have known people who have done all of the things mentioned above, and I have also seen those same people become productive members of society when given the support they need; it doesn't take tons of money or generations of family members to provide it either. We do have a broken system, and learning what I've learned about poverty, I understand why "the system" gets used.

Understanding why the poor use the system doesn't make it any more okay than when the rich use the system, and they surely do. I know just as many wealthy people, in my personal experience, who cheat on their taxes big time -- they get far more than any poor person ever would. One makes about $150K per year, but on taxes is so poor that he couldn't qualify for a loan for his cabin on the lake, so instead he just paid cash. Another, again self-employed and cheating on both taxes AND on an Individual Development Account gets fuel assistance because they just don't want to pay even though they can afford it.

I guess I didn't do too well on refraining from a tangent, but I think I caught myself before I got too carried away and caused too much trouble! At least I hope so . . .

[boefixepa]

I know the welfare system is there for a reason and it needs to be...I have no problem supporting it, nor my churches walfare system, for there are those that truely need it.

However, of all the people I have ever known who use these systems, some personally, I would say more than 3/4 of them are doing it because they are 1.) not willing to work and are more than able 2.) not willing to give up _________ so they need help (this could be a car, cable, eating out...you choose) or 3.) look at aid as a handout they are 'entitled' to.

Many of these types of people are from my own family! I don't understand it and I've given up trying. The ones I know who really need it and use it...they are not on it for long. More power to them! Those are the ones that the system is for, that it was built to help! That's what it is suppose to be like!

I know as a forum, maybe we do bag on 'those people' a bit much, but 'those people' are the extreme opposite of what we are. So in some ways it's natural to look at them and see their faults...human nature rerearing it's head. However, I think we are so passionate about it because it is OUR TAX MONEY being wasted on their lack of caring. I know they sure aren't paying taxes!

I also agree that there are those who have plenty who also cheat the system and I hope what goes around comes around for them too!

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by DivaJen

I just have to ask - how many people here know that many people who are taking advantage of the system, getting something for nothing, lazy, more interested in handouts than working, etc?

I know plenty. I am a physician in a poor area. Many of my patients are on public assistance and/or disability for one reason or another, some more justified than others.

Even though many of these folks are getting various forms of public assistance, they don't seem to have any trouble affording cigarettes, lottery tickets, alcohol, etc. They dress well, have nice jewelry and drive decent cars. But they won't hesitate to ask me for a prescription for Tylenol because their insurance will cover it with a prescription.

I'm certainly not speaking of everyone. Many are truly struggling and doing all they can to get by. But I know many who fit this description. I drive a 1998 Toyota that I bought used. One of my disability patients recently bought a brand new Ford F-150. Now where did he come up with that kind of money? And why does a guy who is supposedly totally disabled need an expensive truck?

Almost every single one of my patients, from teens on up to seniors, comes in carrying a cell phone. Sorry, but I still consider a cell phone to be a luxury item, not a necessity of life.

Lots of patients who are on disability still work regularly and get paid under the table so there is no record of it. So they collect disability, get free health care and earn tax-free income from their jobs.

So DivaJen, while you may not know any of "those people," there are plenty out there.

[vsjhoc]

I work in the business with "those people" every day but I think those who abuse the system are the exception, not the rule.

It's pretty easy to sit on your high horse and say "if you're not making enough money, go get a higher paying job or a second job." But did you know that the minute someone in subsidized housing has an income increase, the amount of their rent automatically increases? What incentive is there for people to work more, or encourage others in their households to work, if it puts them further behind?

Other little known facts: if you qualify for foodstamps but have no dependents, you get a maximum of $10 per month. Let's have a $10/month eating challenge.

Why don't we all spend more time and energy trying to help each other on this site (as so many people already do ) rather than criticizing people in whose moccasins we may not have hiked. It's more productive to support others who are motivated to improve their situations than to criticize people who can't, aren't, or won't.

[Ima saver]

I have a friend who is terrible with money. When her husband loses a job ( and has about 75 times) she expects her church to pay for everything and they do. Her rent, her electric, her food, her $200 phone bill, her 2 cell phones, etc.
My long distance phone bill last month was $3 (my fil lives in fla. and is 85) and I have no cell phone. I can not talk her into cutting out "stuff" and saving the money.

[Thrifty Ray]

"Those people" are NOT the folks who are in financial crisis and using the help that we thankfully have in place for such situations. They are not the disabled, the suddenly and/or unexpectedly unemployed, the people who for circumstances BEYOND THEIR CONTROL cannot make it without assistance....they do desire to make a better life eventually, when the situation is better. THEY ARE NOT 'THOSE PEOPLE".

"Those people" ARE the ones who do take advantage and suck the system for all they can. Ive known a few and those few definately fall under this umbrella. "Those people" work the system, file for benefits rather than seek work, keep having children KNOWING that they cant/dont support the ones they have, they know the angles and they work them....some are second generation system workers..."Get a job? Why, I can make it on public assistance"...

I think the confusion comes when it's assumed/implied "THOSE PEOPLE" is a generalization of everyone on public assistance and IMO, its definately NOT.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by vsjhoc

But did you know that the minute someone in subsidized housing has an income increase, the amount of their rent automatically increases? What incentive is there for people to work more, or encourage others in their households to work, if it puts them further behind?

This is a big problem. I'm often asked to fill out a disability form for a patient so that he/she can keep his medical coverage. It is always a tough situation. Sometimes the person has a legitimate medical problem but isn't truly disabled. But if I say they aren't disabled, they lose all their benefits, sometimes including their home. I have several patients who live in motels through public assistance. If their income rises to a certain point, they no longer qualify for the housing assistance. But if they need to spend that income on rent and utilties, they will have little if anything left to live on. It is definitely a deeply flawed system.

[tabbycat31]

disneysteve, a cellphone is not a luxury item if you do not have a landline. I chose to go cellphone only because I don't want to be charged for long distance, etc. I want one phone where I can always be reached at. In the younger generation, you will see this more and more. The only time I've used a landline in the past 5 years has been at work for business related calls. I don't miss it at all.

I think that with any system you will get people milking it. Look at the Earned Income Tax Credit, designed to provide more income for low income families. Yet there will be people buying plasma TVs with that money. At the Customers Suck forum (venting retail employees) there are repeated tales of people driving Hummers to cash their welfare check, then use it to buy steak and lobster, etc. I think at one point, a major league baseball player collected welfare.

However for every 1 person milking the system, there's 10 more who use it wisely. The same could be said about any system.

[LISA178]

Hello,

I am one of "Those People", I am on disability and live on $650 a month.

I never in my wildest dreams thought I would be in the situation I am in today.When I was growing up I thought college and a career where in my future,then things happen.

My parent were both sickly,my mother died when I was 10, leaving us with my father. My dad was a gamble of gigantic proportions,the dog races came first. I spent most of my childhood in the car waiting for him to come out of the races,usally broke. Broke ment no food,no clothes, you get the point.The scars of this stll haunt me today.

My dad died at the race track when I was 16,leaving us in debt and alone. The family that were constantly in our lives now where afraid they'd end up with 3 kids and basically deserted us.

I stayed in school and my sister went to work and my brother worked also.The jobs were minimum wage. We were all grieving and things happen and my brother left.

I stayed in school and my sister worked and the car died and needed to be fixed. So we took from Peter to pay Paul and Peter wasn't happy.So I quit school to find a job,unfortunately not in time to make Peter happy and things just went down hill.Stealing from Peter to give to Paul is jumping into a downward spiral that is hard to get out of.

My town is a factory town so I did factory work. Factories lay-off and I decide to go to hairdressing school. I finished school indebt from student loan and not the greatest of hairdressers. I get a job in a salon and realise this is not for me or the people I'm working on(LOL)so in their best interest I go back to the factories in debt.

My story is one of working,layoff and the factories leaving the area to go overseas taking the jobs with them.

I got sick with diabetes and the stress of being unemployed and running out of options took it's toll mentally. It's not a thrill being unable to find someone to hire you.
So I needed help for medications and doctors and I neede help for living.

I don't live a single day without regret and shame about the situation I'm in and sorry but it burns my @** to hear the phrase "If I can do it they can" .Until you walk a mile in someone elses shoes let us not pass judgement.
I'm glad life worked out for you and your choices were good ones,but not everyone gets to follow the same path.

I'm know alot of wrong decision that seemed right at the time put me where I am, but it wasn't all my doing.I can't control outside influences,none of us can.

I don't know,we're so hard on our own people but think nothing of sending aid to all these foriegn countries. I don't begrugde them aid,I just wish we had the same compassion for the homeless and hungry in the USA. Instead of the "if X can do it" theory.

Sorry for the rant,just tried to explain how you become one of "Those other people"

Lisa

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by tabbycat31

disneysteve, a cellphone is not a luxury item if you do not have a landline.

It is if you are paying more for the cellphone.

Verizon's Flat Rate Service for unlimited local calling is $8.95/month. And I know you can get long distance service for 3 cents/minute from a variety of sources. I think you'd have a tough time finding cell phone service anywhere close to that. Cingular's cheapest individual plan is $39.99/month.

I wonder how many people who dropped their land lines in favor of a cell phone are actually saving any money.