Hybrid vehicles isn't the answer....

[stngymama]

Right now I'm not too impressed by what is officially stated by either the USDA or Dept of Energy. They are NOT impartial. If we were dependent on Ethanol, all we would need is one bad season to be in the hole again and dependent on a foreign supplier. Why replace one carbon based fuel with another? Why stop wrecking the environment in one way to go at it in another? Don't get it.

Solar would be ideal, EV works in town, biodiesel is VEEEEEERY cool (and DIY), fuel cells have gotten a LOT of research (even the oil companies are backing research as they envision themselves providing hydrogen at the pump ). Mass transit works in much of Europe......I think there's so much confusion because everyone's been caught flatfooted and we're in panic mode.

Again, hybrids work now: in our used Prius (80K miles) we get 50mpg on the highway, and better in town. Better than the EPA tested, but true -not a promo!

As an additonal , we found on CraigsList that we could, right now, resale our Prius for more than we paid for it.

If $ were really tight, I'd go with what Haku says: a used subcompact, and take care of it!

Just my 2¢

[VJW]

Originally Posted by stngymama

Right now I'm not too impressed by what is officially stated by either the USDA or Dept of Energy. They are NOT impartial.

Even if that were true, there are plenty of other private-sector examples as well, I merely pointed to the official results.

If we were dependent on Ethanol, all we would need is one bad season to be in the hole again and dependent on a foreign supplier.

But that would be unlikely to happen, as you can use such a wide variety of grains in the process. Corn, wheat, milo, soybeans, etc. There’s always some of something in storage, and you could utilize whatever is the least expensive at the time.

Why replace one carbon based fuel with another?

Because it’s renewable ?

Solar would be ideal, EV works in town, biodiesel is VEEEEEERY cool (and DIY)

I’m operating one of my vehicles on Biodiesel.

fuel cells have gotten a LOT of research (even the oil companies are backing research as they envision themselves providing hydrogen at the pump )

Yeah, and the want to utilize fossil fuels to make the hydrogen. Big improvement.

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[stngymama]

Originally Posted by VJW

I’m operating one of my vehicles on Biodiesel.

Cool!
For the rest, we obviously have a (slight, believe it or not) difference of opinion. Hopefully there will ultimately be many different practical solutions.

[Haku]

This is mostly just me thinking out loud, but I too was excited when President Bush first proposed Fuel Cells.

Unfortunately, when I looked into it further, the initiative called for harvesting Hydrogens out of existing fossil fuel. While the process would be easier, and thus, cheaper and also requiring less R&D, it also meant that we would still be dependent on foreign oil not to mention harming the environment.

Only the Europeans have announced that they are researching Hydrogen harvesting from water. Much more research and money will be required to take that route, but if that ever comes to fruition, there's an almost limitless supply that can be had, it would break foreign oil dependence, and it should not produce harmful emission of any kind.

Alas, regardless of which route our governments take, we are still light years away from considering Fuel Cells as a practical alternative. For example, besides the refinement process, our refueling infrastructure (ie. gas stations) would have to be completely replaced. Completely. Oh yeah, our vehicles too.

After all that, I've been inclined to think that the announcement of Fuel Cells was more as a means of politically arm-twisting OPEC to drive the price down rather than proposing a truly viable alternative. President Bush's recent shift to promote Hybrid vehicles and Lithium-Ion battery kits, and away from Fuel Cells, only reinforces my suspicion.

For now, we have to make do with what we have. I'd like to see the mainstream shift towards subcompacts, Hybrids, and Bio-diesel. To clarify my position, I'm not saying that Hybrids aren't any good. Rather, I just wish we can do even better than that. That's all.

[VJW]

Some people have hacked their hybrids and replaced the batteries with larger battery packs, thereby allowing the electric drive to function up to a higher MPH before the gasoline engine kicks in, resulting in about 100 MPG.

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[abowers]

Question: is Biodiesel is only doable in the midwest right now? Due to the cost of shipping it to the east or west coasts.. or it can't be stored for too long, right?

[Haku]

I haven't researched biodiesel as much as I should, but yes, it is found mostly in the midwest where the crops used to make the fuel is found.

Right now it does cost more to produce, refine, and ship bio-diesel fuel than it is to import foreign oil. However, I recall a radio documentary where a couple had a bio-diesel vehicle, and they used waste grease from local restraunts and McDonalds to run it. Restraunts typically have to pay to dispose of the waste oil, so they were only too happy to give it away. In other words, that couple didn't pay a cent to run their car.

In terms of storage, one of the inherent problems with organic oil is that it will coagulate when the temperature falls far enough. To compensate, people usually add more and more diesel into the mix. As for whether or not it will keep, yeah it can't keep for long, but neither is today's gasoline believe or not.

As for the engine itself, if you are mechanically-inclined or know someone who is, you can reverse-engineer a diesel vehicle to accept bio-diesel. I don't know what is involved; I'll have to find that out. Not very many small diesel cars right now though....

Still, I don't see why most of us in the United States can't own and operate a bio-diesel vehicle. Yes, the blend would be more finicky than gasoline, it could cost more, and access to mainstream is very limited. However, these are not insurmountable problems, and with gasoline prices on the rise, I do think it's high time we work on alternative sources of energy.

[stngymama]

Originally Posted by Haku

...... I recall a radio documentary where a couple had a bio-diesel vehicle, and they used waste grease from local restraunts and McDonalds to run it. Restraunts typically have to pay to dispose of the waste oil, so they were only too happy to give it away. In other words, that couple didn't pay a cent to run their car.......

Until you pointed out other forms of biodiesel, I had really only thought of it in terms of the DIY restaurant grease to fuel version; locally that seems to be the popular[only] version available. Our local garbage truck fleet does use it though, but I don't know their source. The common joke is that if you're behind one of these vehicles, you think you're smelling French Fries.
It seems to be a nasty process to do it yourself, but if we end up in a Mad Max kinda world these folks will rule.
I do casually keep my eye out for an old diesel Mercedes for sale, just in case

[starving_student]

Originally Posted by VJW

Not according to the US Department of Agriculture. They state there is a net energy balance for ethanol production of 1.67. That is, for every one unit of energy used to produce ethanol and its accompanying co-products, 1.67 units of energy results. However, the US Department of Energy reports that petroleum refining actually has a negative energy balance. For every unit of energy expended in gasoline production, only 0.79 units of energy results in the form of gasoline.

Agriculture Dept PDF


Energy Dept PDF

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well they are wrong

[starving_student]

Originally Posted by VJW

Some people have hacked their hybrids and replaced the batteries with larger battery packs, thereby allowing the electric drive to function up to a higher MPH before the gasoline engine kicks in, resulting in about 100 MPG.

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Do you have more info on that?

[stngymama]

This is one of many articles about the Prius Stealth mode: http://snipurl.com/check_here

I understand Toyota might make this an official add-on option.

[VJW]

Originally Posted by Haku

I recall a radio documentary where a couple had a bio-diesel vehicle, and they used waste grease from local restraunts and McDonalds to run it.

That’s what I make my Biodiesel from.

Restraunts typically have to pay to dispose of the waste oil, so they were only too happy to give it away. In other words, that couple didn't pay a cent to run their car.

Well, not exactly. If it was really Biodiesel, there is the cost of the methanol, and whatever energy you utilize to heat the batch. I think you are referring to straight WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil), which is just used cooking oil that is strained and filtered and used as fuel in a diesel vehicle. However, there are obvious problems in cold weather, whereas Biodiesel can be used year-round.

In terms of storage, one of the inherent problems with organic oil is that it will coagulate when the temperature falls far enough. To compensate, people usually add more and more diesel into the mix.

That would be B5 to B90 depending upon the mix. B100 is pure Biodiesel (no petroleum).

As for the engine itself, if you are mechanically-inclined or know someone who is, you can reverse-engineer a diesel vehicle to accept bio-diesel.

Actually, there is no need to “reverse-engineer” a diesel to operate on Biodiesel. Although the original engine that Rudolf Diesel invented as a demonstration project operated on coal dust, his later version was intended to operate on vegetable oil. It was the petrochemical industry that later came up with the manmade “diesel” refined from crude oil.

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[VJW]

Originally Posted by starving_student

well they are wrong

No they’re not.

Do you have more info on that?

Yeah:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,69519-0.html


They are also shooting for 150 MPG if you’re willing to plug it in at night (or whatever is the opposite shift for you):

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?sect...le&storyid=818

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[stngymama]

Interesting survey: Car buyers will give up size, not power, for mpg

[Haku]

I know, isn't that terrible?

I read once that the next generation of hybrids were going to focus on power rather than fuel economy (as in, using the electric motor to give the engine extra power when the owner steps on the pedal).

It's a shame that many car buyers are on such a power fixation. I wish that wasn't the case. It certainly isn't the case for me. I love fuel-efficiency.

[poundwise]

Curious question: What is the crash safety record/ratings of the current crop of hybrids?

[cptacek]

Thank you VJW for your insight. And thank you for the URLs so we could look at the information ourselves.

starving_student, saying "well they are wrong" won't win you any arguments. It makes you look like a petulant child that stamped his foot while saying that. If you have any information or studies that has different data, I'm sure the rest of us would like to look at it.

Oh, and by the way, tax rules say that even if you make your own bio-diesel, you have to pay the road taxes on it. Now, farm use diesel doesn't have any taxes on it, but if you use the road, you have to pay it by the gallon.

[stngymama]

Originally Posted by poundwise

Curious question: What is the crash safety record/ratings of the current crop of hybrids?

The Prius has a 4 star rating; don't know about others.