Do School Voucher Programs Save Money?

[terry1156]

I can across this video called Spreading Freedom and Saving Money

Parental choice is the most contentious educational policy issue in America, and no choice plan is more closely watched than the District of Columbia’s school voucher program. Critics of parental choice frequently allege that such programs would increase costs and that public schools would suffer.

In "Spreading Freedom and Saving Money," economists Susan Aud and Leon Michos analyze the impact of the D.C. voucher program and find no support for either allegation. They report that the program saves taxpayers money as it is currently structured and that it would save taxpayers even more money if expanded to include all students. They also find that principals are able to cut spending when enrollment declines. Aud and Michos conclude, however, that the voucher program's current design is problematic, rewarding D.C. Public Schools for declining enrollment instead of creating incentives for improved fiscal responsibility and accountability.

Here's the video

What do you think? Are voucher programs good for education as well as a way to save taxpayer money or are there problems with them and a waste of taxpayer money?

[PrincessPerky]

I havn't looked at the numbers, but how can freedom be a 'waste '?

[PRICEPLUS]

Choice in the free market place always sounds good to me.

[sweeps]

The long-term benefits of an educated society enormously outweigh saving a few bucks in the short term. Vouchers are a slippery slope towards guaranteeing education only for rich families.

[PrincessPerky]

umm, what? vouchers would give those who cannot afford chosing thier childs education the oportunity! How is that reserving education for the rich? The rich can already afford to pick their kids school.

[sweeps]

The government has a responsibility to make sure all children have access to free public education. It should not be the responsibility of the government (and ultimately taxpayers) to subsidize religious and other private education.

Families who are having trouble making ends meet is an entirely separate issue. There are several tax credits, tax deductions, and other programs that are designed for that purpose (which I'm all for).

[nanamom]

I ran a school in a state without a voucher program and it was difficult for the parents to pay tuition. Ours was the lowest tuition in the area. We had great teachers who worked for peanuts because they were dedicated. The local public school has some great teachers but I think an affordable choice is important. I am in favor of the voucher program.

[VJW]

Vouchers have never worked successfully.

Scotland tried vouchers nationally, they failed miserably, and were repealed. The Netherlands tried vouchers nationally, they flopped, and were dropped. Everywhere in America that vouchers or privatization of public schools has been tried it has failed.

Not to mention, the countries whose schools are supposedly besting ours, like Japan, Germany, and the Scandinavian countries, do not have vouchers and never have.

#

[PrincessPerky]

Well since the government is failing to provide education for everyone I think something must be tried!!! Personally the idea of teaching millions of childen everything is rediculous, so many sacrifices must be made when you have to force so many thru in such a short time (mind you it takes much less time for only a few willing to learn)

IMO when something is failing you need to look at why and you need to adjust accordingly, in the case of education it is essentially too much, to fast and to forced. Kill any one of those and it woul be easier, and really the easier a task the less likely you are to fail!!

Kill the too much, make free education cover basic math (enough to pay taxes) and basic reading (enough to read said taxes) and leave the rest for later. If you coulld actually accomplish those two tasks you would have on average a higher education level (if you can read the tax book you can also read up on anything else you want) And BTW when is the last time any of you needed to use the periodic table? since highschool or college I bet (unless it is your field) when is the last time you cared about diagraming sentences? How about felt a burning need to place the explorers of a continent in cronological order? graph a circle? label illegal drugs with street names? I am sure just about everyone here has done ONE of those in their field, but the rest? It just filled time while several of your classmates could have used that time to learn reading or basic math.

This does not mean learning things you don't need is a waste (personally learning is fun!), I just mean that the tax money would be better spent helping children learn to reads and do math than helping you or I learn yet another tidbit of trivia.

Kill the too fast and forced, stop forcing children to learn at the 'average rate' allow them to learn when ready, DS asked to read, in about a year he went from just knowing the letter sounds to being roughly a 'second grade level' Voluntary learning takes practically no time, forced learning takes FOREVER.


PS: When I worked in a small private school the peanuts was nothing compared to the wonderful joy of teaching (course now that I have my own, I don't get the peanuts, but I do a better job of teaching)

[sweeps]

PP, how can a child know what his abilities and interests are if he never gets exposed to them? I believe you stated in other threads that you homeschool -- You're probably fantastic at giving your children the depth and breadth of knowledge they need for the rest of their life. But frankly, that's rare. It's probably even more rare to have a child who will voluntarily put away the comic books and video games in order to study educational topics.

There are some exceptions, but generally speaking, children need to be exposed to many different topics by many different teachers -- and, yes, they have to be forced to do it. Basic math and basic reading are crucial skills, but let's face it, this isn't the 1800's anymore. Children who don't get exposure to a wide range of issues (technology, history, government/civics, world cultures and religions, personal finance, health, the list goes on and on) have a very bleak future ahead of them.

[PrincessPerky]

If you offer opportunities many will willingly take them, if you force them, many will suffer thru but not learn. Have you ever listened in a public school? What are the kids talking about? The 'wonderful things' the teachers are exposing them to? Nope if they mention those it is in complaint, they are talking about TV shows, movies, pop culture, and who likes who (is that like like or just like?) so forcing them to go to school and us to pay for it is not working. Though it does give everyone the feeling we are 'doing something'.

I fully believe that oportunities are wonderful, exposure is the key, so how do we actually get that without wasting so much time and money? First kill the tests, kill your timetable, allow the children theirs, once you have the basic abilities of math and reading the rest of learning is up to you, instead of making everyone learn X amount of dinosaur names, read a book on them and anyone who wants more can have it, I know I love to teach small children (my field) I bet most palentologists would love to talk about dinosaurs. Instead of forcing everyone to rememebr the state proscribed list of which presidents must be remembered, do community projects in local areas on the birthdays that get celebrated (washington, lincoln) and see who wants more, Things like that leave learning back in the realm of fun, voluntary, and wonderful.

Always leave the door open, you will be amazed how many will wander in when there is no one trying to shove them in.

Yes there will be some still failing to learn, some who know more about making illicit drugs than our country, many who know more about the latest fads in TV land than about proper nutrition, but I believe and history shows that it will be LESS than with todays system.

Previously America was rather well educated, with the onset of public schooling the average knowledge base of an American and reading ability has gone down each generation. How can this be with all the millipons spent on education! Because we force everyone and anyone to conform to the 'official' timetable and list of neccessary knowledge. I would rather go back to when the average level of schooling was 3rd grade, yet that third grader could read write, do simple math, knew more histroy than the average adult today, and WANTED to learn more, WANTED to help their children learn, on their own, hiring someone, or just plan offering the books.

What we have now is 'the government will do it'. Many plan on sending their children to school, most will research the 'best school in the area' no offense intended, but the best in the area still has to deal with an assemblyline of students, and no matter how caring loving your childs teachers are they have their hands tied by regulations and rules intended to keep the masses safe. Unless... we can change those needs and rules, we can reduce the workload and focus on the important subjects, we can go back to having people with third grade educations who know enough to do taxes without losing the oportunities for more.

Saying we should focus on the basics does not mean we should drop everything else. I simply feel we should stop wasting time babystitting Americans and start teaching those who want to learn.

Course this has little to do with vouchers, I simply think vouchers are the more democratic way to go .

[cercis]

Princess, I disagree to a certain extent. You HAVE to include history in your list of basic things.

"Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it".

This has been a major problem in the US, we've let coaches teach history and we find that people no longer understand our history. Because of that, we are seeing our constitution treated like a "d+#%d piece of paper" (that's a direct quote, BTW, from our president).

I see us repeating portions of our history that are going to lead to a very bad conclusion if the powers that be don't act quickly. Unfortunately, TPTB seem to be making it worse, not better.

[PrincessPerky]

Then may I ask with all our forced education (including history) are we repeating it?

After all that quote about the constitution came from someone educated with todays requirements (which include a great deal of history).

I totally agree that a certain amount of history is important, and a certain amount of science, and some about english. But the point we differ on is how to get more people to learn more (preferably for less money) My opinion is that voluntary learning is more effective, Yours seemsa to be that the current theory of shoving kids in the doors with proscribed lists of information is all it takes.

[cercis]

I clearly stated we've done a piss poor job of it. We don't value history - so we let coaches teach it.

We haven't valued teaching history since about WWII. I don't know why, but we haven't.

Name the presidents? That was never expected at my school. Matter of fact, very little was expected of us. Not even in college. All that I've learned about history I've learned since I left school because I realized it was EXTREMELY important.

We are definitely repeating history and TPTB aren't preventing it and indeed are allowing it to happen (encouraging it in some respects).

[PrincessPerky]

Well then if the current system sucks, why not change it

[nanamom]

I homeschooled my first two and intend to do it again. My philosophy was teach them to read (after or while instilling a love for it) and get out of the way! They took off. If something doesn't look interesting enough to them (like fraction) make it fun. We "studies" fractions by making cookies. Somehow the recipe always had to be doubled or tripled or halfed or quartered or... I think they turned out well and are well educated.

[VJW]

Originally Posted by PrincessPerky

Well then if the current system sucks, why not change it

Where’s the evidence that “the current system sucks” ?

* High school completion rates (at roughly 90 percent in 2000) and college graduation rates, are the HIGHEST IN HISTORY.

* One in four adult Americans has at least a bachelor's degree -- the highest percentage IN THE WORLD (and the percentage keeps getting higher).

* A larger percentage of twenty-two-year-olds receive degrees in math, science, or engineering in the United States than in any of our nation's major economic competitors.

Therefore, where we are willing to spend the money and resources, we can and do have the best public schools IN THE WORLD.

#

[nanamom]

Current system. Well, I was an education major in college as was my sister. I know of several people who changed majors after first semester because they felt it was an easier field than the one they had selected. What kind of teachers did they make? I knew several teachers who told me they went into education because they got the summer off and didn't work a full day. I had a teacher tell me preschoolers don't learn anything anyway so she figured she could teach them. I just had a young man graduate high school with honors. He watched Mrs. Doubtfire in class because the teacher liked the movie and wasn't prepared to teach. Another teacher screened the students she let into her advanced class. If she felt she would have to help them they didn't get in. Aren't teachers supposed to help students? Another teacher told me she wasn't concerned if they learned the material because she felt it wasn't important and they needed to learn to work together instead. I would have preferred in addition. One spent so much time in class analyzing the kids and trying to be there for them that she never seemed to teach. I went to conferences and was told oh these are just for the kids that are flunking. When I pushed for news of how he was doing they told me he would be OK. I don't want OK! The list goes on! When DS1 was in grade school a teacher told him he wasn't allowed to tell his friend that 2 minus 3 was less than zero. He had worked it out on his own and came to us for confirmation. We explained negative numbers and he went to his teacher who said if he told anyone she would say he was wrong. I started home schooling shortly after that.

[sweeps]

nanamom, you're going to find anecdotal horror stories from people in every profession. How many teachers do kids see over their school career? Dozens. The one or two bad apples get canceled out by the excellent teachers out there. In the case of homeschooling, if the parent is not such a good teacher, that child never gets a chance to learn from another teacher -- that is what scares me.

Have you ever in your homeschooling -- just for an hour or two -- let your kids do something non-educational because frankly you were just too tired? I thought so. Show me anyone from any profession that hasn't "zoned out" for an hour or a day or a week.

[jmjj215]

VJW, I do worry that a bachelor's degree isn't too much to show these days. Even the MBA (no offense Sweeps!) appears to be losing its edge we've seen earlier. I think it's great we're getting so many people educated (and that we're still producing tons of thinkers - not just China) - just kind of wondering where the differentiation will be next - hopefully with skills instead of just a degree.