Health Care debate

[bjl584]

I feel like I'm living in an alternate universe everytime I hear about the Health Care debate that is currently going on. This entire thing is getting way out of hand. From what I've learned about our republic and our system of government here in America, when someone has an idea, they float that idea. A bill will then be crafted based on that idea. A vote will then take place in Congress. The bill will then either be signed into law or it will be vetoed by the President. But what I see going on now doesn't seem to have anything to do with that process. The vote keeps being delayed until enough votes can be secured. There have been several buyoffs, backroom deals, and other questionable tactics to get members of Congress on board. Now there is talk of curcumventing the traditional voting process and pushing the bill through without voting on it at all. If the bill is a bad bill, and members of Congress don't want to vote yes, and the public at large is against it by about 70 to 30 percent, then why are the powers that be ignoring all of this and trying to push it through anyway? Aren't they supposed to be representing the will of the people? Has Washington completely lost touch with the rest of the country? Where will all of this end? If they are arrogant enough to push through something like Health Care whether we want it or not, then why stop there? Why not just plow every thing that is on every special interest's wish list straight through and make it a law too? I'm wondering if we are witnessing the end of our system of government and witnessing an end to the adherance to our Constitution. I realize that a lot of people need Health Care, but there needs to be a procedure that is follwed as laid out by our Constitution in order to get it to those people. You can't ignore the law just because you want something and because you think that you are doing good. Am I overreacting or am I on to something here? OK, I'm done venting. What do you all think about all of this?

[BlackDiamond]

I am against it because I think it will raise premiums for the 70% who have private health care and pay for it themselves or through their employer.

I agree, it is shady that even though no one wants it, except a very small minority, they are trying to push it through.

[kork13]

**sigh** yea, I agree..... All of the lunacy the Congress is trying to pull right now is EXTREMELY frustrating for me.

Originally Posted by bjl584

Has Washington completely lost touch with the rest of the country?

I don't have the patience or energy to launch into it, so I'll just say that I feel this is EXACTLY what's going on. And what are we to do about it? If our congressman is one of the ones rabidly pushing for some of these things to go through (such is the case for me), there's nothing I can do. Any opposition I try to voice would be ignored, because he sees it as his ticket to more terms in office. It's this kind of thing that has turned me off entirely from any interest in national politics, because I don't trust them. As a 23-y/o (with many peers who share my opinions), that sadly spells misfortune for our country's future.

[cptacek]

I think this whole thing stinks to high heaven. The worst part (of many, many bad parts) is the "deeming" part of it. If you haven't been paying attention, from what I understand, the House wants to pass a rule change that if you vote for a related bill, it "counts" for voting for the Senate health care bill (or as they say, they will "deem it passed" even though they didn't vote on the health care bill).

This is blatantly unconstitutional. Look up Article 1 Section 7. Each house must pass the same bill. They must vote on the bill. Not even a word can be different. The argument of "it's been done before" is crap. That just means the other times it was done was wrong too.

If they want to pass this crap sandwich, why are they afraid to put their names beside their vote? Why try to hide it? They know it is wrong and just want to keep their jobs, that's why. But people are paying attention now, and these little maneuvers won't hide who actually voted for the rule change.

If Speaker Pelosi says this passes in this way and President Obama signs this piece of paper (which isn't a bill, so his signing it won't make it a law, though they will try to enforce it as a law) there will be lawsuits filed immediately.

If the courts decline to take it up, I am honestly afraid of anarchy...of a backlash never seen before. If Congress doesn't have to follow the Supreme Law of the Land, which they took an oath to uphold and defend, then what the hell good are any laws?

[cptacek]

Another thing that bothers me is that the House already passed a bill last year. The Senate passed a different bill on Christmas Eve. Now, everyone is saying that the House has to pass the Senate bill. That is not true.
1. The House could pass the Senate bill as is, and it would then be law.
2. The Senate could pass the House bill as is, and it would then be law.
3. The House and Senate could come to a compromise and then both houses would have to vote on it again in order for it to become law.

But the House bill won't pass the Senate...it won't get the votes. And a compromise won't pass the Senate either. Yet the House leadership is trying to convince its members that they can pass a "reconciliation bill" and the Senate bill with one vote (deeming the Senate bill passed), let the President sign that into law, and then they can count on the Senate to pass the reconciliation bill. Are they really that stupid? Do you really think the Senate will continue to talk about Health Care when they have gotten their way? If the House bill won't pass the Senate, why do they think the House reconciliation bill will pass the Senate?

[nck4857]

Well all we can do at this point is call, email and scream as loud as you can to your elected representatives and voice your displeasure of this ridiculous process. Here is the number for the congressional switchboard: 877-762-8762 Call and voice your opinion on how this healthcare bill is being rammed thru while there is Bi-Partisan support AGAINST it!! Also try 202-224-3121 or 202-225-3121.

[markusk]

Originally Posted by bjl584

I feel like I'm living in an alternate universe everytime I hear about the Health Care debate that is currently going on. This entire thing is getting way out of hand. From what I've learned about our republic and our system of government here in America, when someone has an idea, they float that idea. A bill will then be crafted based on that idea. A vote will then take place in Congress. The bill will then either be signed into law or it will be vetoed by the President. But what I see going on now doesn't seem to have anything to do with that process. The vote keeps being delayed until enough votes can be secured. There have been several buyoffs, backroom deals, and other questionable tactics to get members of Congress on board. Now there is talk of curcumventing the traditional voting process and pushing the bill through without voting on it at all. If the bill is a bad bill, and members of Congress don't want to vote yes, and the public at large is against it by about 70 to 30 percent, then why are the powers that be ignoring all of this and trying to push it through anyway? Aren't they supposed to be representing the will of the people? Has Washington completely lost touch with the rest of the country? Where will all of this end? If they are arrogant enough to push through something like Health Care whether we want it or not, then why stop there? Why not just plow every thing that is on every special interest's wish list straight through and make it a law too? I'm wondering if we are witnessing the end of our system of government and witnessing an end to the adherance to our Constitution. I realize that a lot of people need Health Care, but there needs to be a procedure that is follwed as laid out by our Constitution in order to get it to those people. You can't ignore the law just because you want something and because you think that you are doing good. Am I overreacting or am I on to something here? OK, I'm done venting. What do you all think about all of this?

I'm having a flash back -- replace "Health Care" with "Bush Tax Cuts" -- talk about dejavu; this is a similar argument that some Democrats in Congress made when Bush used a similar political maneuver to get his tax cut passed through Congress. This was of course followed by 2 wars. Then we went from a budget surplus to a deficit.

Far as I am concerned, Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin. More things change, more stay the same.

On a side note, health care reform is needed. The current healthcare plan on the table is not perfect, but I still support it.

If you are not for ANY type of healthcare reform, then you are not currently sick and believe you will never get sick.

Flame away.

[bjl584]

Originally Posted by markusk

I'm having a flash back -- replace "Health Care" with "Bush Tax Cuts" -- talk about dejavu; this is a similar argument that some Democrats in Congress made when Bush used a similar political maneuver to get his tax cut passed through Congress. This was of course followed by 2 wars. Then we went from a budget surplus to a deficit.

Far as I am concerned, Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin. More things change, more stay the same.

On a side note, health care reform is needed. The current healthcare plan on the table is not perfect, but I still support it.

If you are not for ANY type of healthcare reform, then you are not currently sick and believe you will never get sick.

Flame away.

Actually I am for some form of healthcare reform. Our system of healthcare is not perfect and it could use some tweeking, but I am not for changing it like this. The Constitution and the laws need to be followed. The whole argument that circumventing the rules of the Congress were done before, so it's okay to do it this way now doesn't hold water. Two wrongs don't make a right. If it was wrong then, then it is wrong now. Politicians love to point fingers and play the blame game, constantly screeming that it is justified for them to break the rules today because the other side broke the rules yesterday. That's BS. Theoretically if you broke into my house and stole something from me, could I then break into your house and steal something from you at a later date and then simply explain to the police that I am justified in doing so because you did it to me in the past? Good luck with that one. There are a lot of good ideas for reform out there, but those ideas need to be crafted into bills as laid out by our Constitution and then voted on. If it passes, then it is law. If it is not, then thanks for trying, better luck next time.

[sweeps]

Sorry, I didn't read through all the responses but just wanted to make a couple comments....

Regarding the comments about the unfair parliamentary rule workaround, I agree with the spirit of your argument, however wouldn't you agree that the filibuster has been grossly overused recently? In the good old days it was RARELY used -- and only in what deemed to be emergency situations. Now it is standard procedure to use it. Doesn't that violate the intent of the constitution that a simple majority in both houses is all that is needed to pass a bill?

My other comment about the health care bill is, how can anyone really know whether it is good or not? Has anyone actually read the hundreds (thousands?) of pages that make up the bill -- and understood it? You get excerpts of information from pundits but can they really be trusted not to spin things? The big problem here is that bills in general are way too difficult to understand. It's nearly impossible to know what good or bad will come from all this ridiculously complex legislation. Time to simplify things so people can understand what they are supporting or not supporting.

[bjl584]

Originally Posted by sweeps

Sorry, I didn't read through all the responses but just wanted to make a couple comments....

Regarding the comments about the unfair parliamentary rule workaround, I agree with the spirit of your argument, however wouldn't you agree that the filibuster has been grossly overused recently? In the good old days it was RARELY used -- and only in what deemed to be emergency situations. Now it is standard procedure to use it. Doesn't that violate the intent of the constitution that a simple majority in both houses is all that is needed to pass a bill?

My other comment about the health care bill is, how can anyone really know whether it is good or not? Has anyone actually read the hundreds (thousands?) of pages that make up the bill -- and understood it? You get excerpts of information from pundits but can they really be trusted not to spin things? The big problem here is that bills in general are way too difficult to understand. It's nearly impossible to know what good or bad will come from all this ridiculously complex legislation. Time to simplify things so people can understand what they are supporting or not supporting.

I agree. Healthcare represents 1/6 of the US economy. That's way too large and way to comlplex and way too dynamic to be written down on paper and dictated from Washington. The bill could be 7 million pages long and there would still be things that would get overlooked. Peoples' heads are definitely spinning due to all this complexity.

[woodie96]

I think that health care needs to be reworked...but not the way they are doing it now. I think all sections of the bill need to be addressed individually and voted on individually. Contain the costs, ensure that people can get coverage, limit malpractice....

And why on god's little green earth would they even think of adding student loan stuff in there.....The health care issue is complex enough as it is without adding in all of the other items and special interests.

Someone pointed out article 7 of the constitution...also take a look at I think it is article 8...basically says that all taxes, duties, etc...will be across the board for all states.....None of these political special deals like they tried to do in Nebraska and others.

JMHO

[HappyCamperKitteh]

You guys can bash me all you want, but I'm all for the bill. Unlike my father in law, millions of people be able to obtain heart bypass surgery for a somewhat reasonable cost (if there is any at all).

And the bill has already mentioned that it would be illegal for any insurance company to jack up premiums due to the bill. If you're satisfied, you can stay.

[cptacek]

Originally Posted by HappyCamperKitteh

And the bill has already mentioned that it would be illegal for any insurance company to jack up premiums due to the bill. If you're satisfied, you can stay.

Wrong. The Senate is NOW coming up with a plan to regulate premiums. This is not in the already passed law.
Senate Bill Sets a Plan to Regulate Premiums - NYTimes.com

From the article:

The White House offered a similar proposal in the weeks leading up to approval of the health care legislation last month. But it was omitted from the final measure, in part for procedural reasons.

You guys can bash me all you want, but I'm all for the bill. Unlike my father in law, millions of people be able to obtain heart bypass surgery for a somewhat reasonable cost (if there is any at all).

So who is going to pay for it?

[bjl584]

Originally Posted by HappyCamperKitteh

You guys can bash me all you want, but I'm all for the bill. Unlike my father in law, millions of people be able to obtain heart bypass surgery for a somewhat reasonable cost (if there is any at all).

And the bill has already mentioned that it would be illegal for any insurance company to jack up premiums due to the bill. If you're satisfied, you can stay.

Not cost. Price. That's the devil in the details. The Government does not have the ability to control cost. It can only impose controls on price. There is a huge difference. What an item or a service costs is dictated by the market and by supply and demand. There are costs associated with bringing any product or service to market. That cost is reflected in the price. When the government attempts to control price it often causes a market shortage. In this case, healthcare. If the price that the healthcare industry is allowed to charge for some procedure is less than what it costs to bring it to market, then you won't be able to find that medical service anywhere. Like your father in law, if it costs $100,000 to perform that bypass, but the government says that the hospital can only charge $80,000 for it, then he is going to die. Bottom line. Be very careful when you allow the government to "give" you anything, because they have to take it away from someone else first.

[Homebody]

It is not a health care bill, it is a health insurance bill. That is the most misunderstood part of it. If there is no one to provide the care or will accept the insurance what good is it. And as far as heart surgery, yeah if you can get authorization for it. What if they decide that the person is too old or has diabetes or something else. It's bad enough fighting insurance companies, try fighting the government!

[cyclone1]

Just going to raise taxes for the immediate future

[cyclone1]

Can't believe the government has sold us out like this

[Johngate2100]

This will be very expensive for many people.Govt health care is enough for people.Although there are some advantages of this but very few people go for this.