Flu vaccines or global warming?

[markusk]

This week the local paper had stories focusing on families choosing between having their children getting or not getting the flu shot this year (both the regular flu and H1N1). Although the vast science/medical data indicate vaccines are safe, some families in California are choosing not to get their children immunized, citing "tentative scientific data" suggesting "the jury is still out on this issue." One school district reported that about 25% of parients of school age children have requested permission not to have their children immunized.

A few weeks ago there were news articles about people who still think that global warming is either not real or being exaggerated by the "media." Again despite vast scientific data to the contrary, some people are citing "tentative scientific data" suggesting "the jury is still out on this issue."

I bring this up because a neighbor told me yesterday that she does not think vaccines are safe and so are not getting her children vaccinated this fall against the flu. This same neighbor is also environmentally very aware (has solar panel, removed front lawn with drought resistant plants, drives a Prius, etc) and the words "carbon foot print" is in her normal every-day vocabulary. Needless to say this neighbor gets very irritated with people who do not believe that global warming is real ("how can they ignore all the science?).

This got me to thinking. Is there an inverse relationship between one's belief in getting the flu shot and global warming? In other words, does your belief in getting the flu shot predict your belief in global warming, and vise versa?

[disneysteve]

I don't think there is any relationship between those two beliefs. The sad fact is that a great many people simply don't understand science. They are more swayed by infomercials, snake oil salesmen, televangelists and other scam artists. I gave up a while ago trying to have an intelligent conversation with folks like this.

[irmanator]

well I don't get the flu shot bc I am young healthy but also not so sure i trust it. I figure I can deal with the flu better than the unknown. Maybe I am nuts but I prefer cautious. I don't do too much of anything especially medicine when it is new.

I don't think global warming is a problem, from what I have read the warming and cooling happens in cycles. Since the earth has been around with these cycles longer than we have been keeping records, I am not sure there is anything to worry about right now.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by irmanator

well I don't get the flu shot bc I am young healthy but also not so sure i trust it. I figure I can deal with the flu better than the unknown. Maybe I am nuts but I prefer cautious. I don't do too much of anything especially medicine when it is new.

I'm curious what aspect of the flu vaccine you consider new or unknown. We've been giving flu shots for decades.

I am not debating your choice not to get one. I am also young and healthy and don't get one either but not because I don't trust it or don't think it works. I don't get one because I'm not in a high risk group.

[markusk]

Irmanator: so you don't believe in the science of either of the two issues? That's interesting. How strongly do you feel about that? I don't know if you have children, but if you did, would you let them get vaccinated against mumps, measles, ruebella, chicken pox, polio etc?

disneysteve: as a healthcare worker, shouldn't you get vaccinated?

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by markusk

disneysteve: as a healthcare worker, shouldn't you get vaccinated?

Probably so according to the guidelines. I do think personal history is important, though. I've been a doctor for 19 years. In that time, I've missed exactly one day of work due to illness, some stomach virus, and that was over 10 years ago. I've got a good immune system. I eat a healthy diet, drink lots of water and wash my hands all day long. When I'm older, like 50 or 55, I'll start getting the flu shot but for now, I don't see the need.

But again, that is not because I doubt the science, safety or efficacy of the vaccine. I highly recommend it to people who are at risk. In fact, I vaccinated both my wife (who has asthma) and my mother (who is 79 and diabetic) earlier today.

[am_vanquish]

Originally Posted by markusk

does your belief in getting the flu shot predict your belief in global warming, and vise versa?

In general, I'd say no. However, I wouldn't be surprised that there might be some correlation, but not very strong. I say this because many people who are severely environmentally friendly are averse to synthetic "manmade" concoctions. They prefer things to be all-natural. For instance, they're more likely to eat organic foods because they oppose preservatives and other chemicals in their food. I'd say that most vegans are environmentally conscious. I'd also say that vegans are more likely than others to be averse to vaccines. Ergo ... some correlation wouldn't surprise me.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by am_vanquish

I'd also say that vegans are more likely than others to be averse to vaccines.

Funny that you say that. My daughter is vegetarian (not vegan) and she was quite averse to the 3 vaccines I gave her this morning. Of course, she wasn't opposed to them on a scientific basis. She just didn't want to get the needles.

[markusk]

Originally Posted by am_vanquish

In general, I'd say no. However, I wouldn't be surprised that there might be some correlation, but not very strong. I say this because many people who are severely environmentally friendly are averse to synthetic "manmade" concoctions. They prefer things to be all-natural. For instance, they're more likely to eat organic foods because they oppose preservatives and other chemicals in their food. I'd say that most vegans are environmentally conscious. I'd also say that vegans are more likely than others to be averse to vaccines. Ergo ... some correlation wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah, that was what I was thinking. It's not the science but the preformed belief/bias/philosophy; if the science supports their belief, then yes they believe in the science, if not then no the science is suspect. But what about folks who don't believe that global warming is real, do those people believe in getting immunization shots? Just thinking/asking out loud.

Disneysteve: our 3 year old daughter looks forward to seeing her pediatrician and actually asked, when am I getting my next shot? She is a non-stop chatter box.

[melinuxfool]

I personally think there's a lot of sensationalism to both. The media gets higher ratings for the hype. They want to get the chicken littles of the world to yell out that the sky is falling.

Well, I'm not buying it. So what if the temperature gets a little warmer or cooler, or whatever the paranoid are calling it these days! We experience mini cycles of global warming and cooling every year, they're called seasons.

The world isn't going to come to an end because it gets 3-5 degrees warmer or cooler. Remember, we've had ice ages before, and I believe we're still technically coming out of one. My state, 10,000 years ago, was covered in Glaciers. What made them melt? Was it automobile emissions?

I feel that politicians are shooting arrows at the sun. They're putting all this effort into something that is going to have zero results, all the while stealing from our paychecks each week to pay the bill for their stupidity!

[LivingAlmostLarge]

LOTS of parents don't vaccinate period. They believe it causes autism. Sigh. Not just flu, but even MMR, polio, rubella, etc.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by LivingAlmostLarge

LOTS of parents don't vaccinate period. They believe it causes autism. Sigh. Not just flu, but even MMR, polio, rubella, etc.

Jenny McCarthy has done more damage to science in recent years than anyone else. Her crusade against vaccines is criminal IMO.

[creditcardfree]

Personally, I'm not convinced on global warming. However, I do recycle and I'm beginning to look limit the amount of plastic that comes into my home because it takes so long to break down into the earth. I'm making many green changes because they are cheaper, they use less energy or because they don't come in plastic.

I've vaccinated my kids for everything...but we don't tend to get the flu shot ever year. I have no real reason why or why not. I think only my oldest had it when she was 3, but DH and I got it too. We don't get sick very often at all. Right now, I think we plan to skip the both flu vaccines.

So, my point, I have mixed points of view!!

[irmanator]

The h1n1 is new and reports say it hasn't been sufficiently tested. Besides that I really don't see the big deal, last time I got the flu I slept all week. I don't remember doing anything else.

[markusk]

The OP was not about the merits of each belief, but whether one belief predicts the other. I personally believe in the science of both. As a healthcare worker, I've always gotten flu shots every year and this year is no exception.

As an aside, getting immunization shots is more than just protecting yourself or your child. It also protects those around you. If only a few children don't get immunized in a school district, it should be fine ("herd" protection). But if more and more children do not get immunized, then at a certain point "herd immunization" is lost and there is the danger of an epidemic, so now others in the community may be affected -- pregnant mothers (who has a child in school), the elderly grandparents with COPD/asthma, the aunt on chemo for breast cancer, etc.

A note on H1N1: it seems to affect young healthy pregnant women and not affect the elderly. If the data from the summer holds up, a lot of pregnant woman may get very very sick this flu season. This is why priority will be given to pregnant women with the first batch of H1N1 shots. The danger is not that a healthy high school student gets H1N1; the danger is when they bring it back to their home/neighborhood, church/supermarket, etc where they are in contact with a non-immunized pregnant woman.

[GREENBACK]

I'm 44 yrs. old and in very good shape. I've had what military doctors diagnosed as "Some type of flu" in 1983. I was seriously sick for two weeks and went to the ER twice. They said to rest and you'll be fine. I eventually was fine but it was a horrible 2 weeks. I guess it was some form of bird flu(prevalent strain that year) but can't say for sure. Oddly enough, I've had virtually zero illnesses since then beyond a minor cold or something.


I haven't taken a flu shot to this day. I certainly believe in it for the elderly and others with weakened immune systems though. I have lots of skepticism when it comes to the gov't and I don't buy into the global warming argument as it's presented from a govermental perspective.

I will likely take the shot one day but will not buy into climatological junk science, based on a very young model of human history, ever. So many idiots with too much education and too little real world brain power try to convince us that the sky is falling and we fail to look to the sky to see if it's really happening. This somewhat applies to beliefs about H5N1 and global warming. I think it's all just another phase in human history.

[zakity]

The guys and I don't do the flu shots. DH does some years. The guys and I won't be getting the H1N1 shot. I don't feel like it has been tested enough. I feel like it was rushed out and that scares me. But, on the other side of things, we are all extremely healthy. We rarely get sick.

And, we are one of those families that the childhood shots affected adversely. One of my children was developing normally. He was a baby and was saying a few words (ball, mama, dada). He got a shot and within two days, all he said was "ugh". He had to go through three years of speech therapy and OT. He has some developmental delays and still has some speech issues. So, you can tell me over and over that the shot doesn't really cause that, but, you know, it happened to us.

[MonkeyMama]

I am kind of with Greenback here, hehe.

Flu shot - no - not getting them

Global Warming? - I don't know

Fact is, there is so much out there about how ineffective and useless flu shots really are. For that, I don't see the point of the risk. I wouldn't say, "The flu shot is too risky." But no, I don't see the point of getting stuck with a needle, and being exposed to viruses and chemicals, for no good reason. I'd say, "I don't see the benefit."

Global Warming? I believe the earth is getting warmer. Beyond that I don't believe mankind has a clue. Is this bad? Would reducing CO2 emmissions hurt us more than help? (Yes, it could! Scientists have proven it can hurt more than help). Do humans have a good track record "playing God?" Don't we have a long history of solving one problem, while inadvertently creating many more problems?

Which leads me to a point. We are big on recycling and reducing energy usage. Is it because we believe in Global Warming? Pffft. It's because we believe that resources on earth are limited. I wouldn't assume everyone who was "green" was green for the sole purpose of global warming. In my opinion, people who believe that reducing emmissions will reverse global warming, and save the world, are idiots. If only the Earth was so simple! I don't mind reducing emmissions so I can breathe clean air though. There are plenty of valid, tangible reasons to go Green.

For that I am sure I could easily be judged to fit into the mold of "anti-flu shot, pro-global warming." But reality is I think there is a lot of hype out there and most people don't think much beyond what they are told.

[GrimJack]

Flu vaccines have been around for about 40 years now so I am not sure how anyone cans say that the H1N1 is untested (er, you take the virus, infect a bunch of eggs, remove and kill the virus, then load a bunch of hypodermics with the dead virus - Yes, this is a simplification but...). Correlation does not imply causation - kids 'get' autism that were not vaccinated.
The sad thing about the H1N1 flu is that the people who die from it have no warning; they get sick and are dead within 72 hours.
Getting the flu shot is not just for yourself, it is also for 'herd immunity'; so you get sick and take 2 weeks off but so do the people you infected and the people they infected.
W/r/t the mercury content of the shots - you get way more mercury in tuna fish and almost all other fish you eat than you would get in a lifetime of vaccinations.

Global warming is causing serious problems - 70% of Montana's lodge pole pine forests are dead because the winters no longer kill enough of pine beetle to keep them under control. Similar things are happening to all the pine forests (fortunately, much of the forest around our cabin is spruce so we are only going to have to take down 40 trees or so but it is going to look pretty naked).

[PrincessPerky]

Recently read a history book saying 'Norway was warmer back then"...looked into some other historic documents. Seems the worlds temperature has been fluctuating for some time. And yes some trees, animals, ect have suffered quite a bit. Who is to say that is not a normal part of life? would we all be better off if the dinosaurs had not died out?

Not that I have any intentions of stopping any green practices I can manage. recycling, reusing, reducing consumption, composting, and such are all habits that are obviously good for my family. (oh and others)
The long term(as in years, not 10day forcast) weather predictions of recent day are generally wrong, by several degrees. Not that there will be no ramifications, weather has always been a major factor in human death. And there is much good man can do to keep weather at bay (leave the sand dunes on beaches alone to act as buffers against sea storms) But getting all into a panic over the world just causes folk who can look at the big picture to assume the fear mongering idiots know nothing.

Instead of fear tactics, we aught to be looking at local ways folk are effected. Don't tell Joe schmo that using electricity will make the world hot in 2050, tell him the coal burning plant is putting out pollution RIGHT NOW, that is bad for him to breath. That is what got tons of filters in the PA area (no longer the dirty city)

Anyway, point is, the far distant future is uncertain, the immediate effects are easy to see, and prove. Maybe we could bring the out of site issues to folks minds, rather than trying to incite fear over unproven science theories.

On the vaccine, it is mostly just the flu, but I am glad of all that fear hype, less folk are sending their kids to the day care with fevers dosed up on Tylenol to buy themselves 4 hours to work. More folk are actually washing their hands like mom said, and less folk are going to work in spite of the flu. Some are even keeping kids home when Mom has the flu (cause kid is prolly carrying) But no I prolly wont get the vaccine myself.