My gun could have saved my husband

[Broken Arrow]

So, this has nothing to do with personal finance at all, and I'm not looking to start a controversy here or anything, but as a pro-gun individual, I feel compelled to share this video as it articulates what I believe in as well....

LINK

[GREENBACK]

As someone who has witnessed this kind of thing way to often, I won't disagree. Every state that has concealed carry in effect has not seen any of the cowboy shootouts that the anti-gunners always predict will happen. In virtually every one of these states there are no incidents at all. When someone does use their legal firearm to protect themselves it gets little media coverage or it's underplayed and buried in the newspaper.

Those that go to the trouble to complete a concealed carry course are by and large highly responsible people with clean records( a must). Why not allow them into bars and restaurants? I can tell you this...The true criminals in the bars and restaurants are armed and couldn't care less about it being legal to do so! This has been proven over and over again.

We, as americans can be very naive about this type of stuff as it's going on right around us.

[GrimJack]

I do not think that the gun issue is as simple as either side thinks.

[PrincessPerky]

No issue is ever simple, but I think our founders had the right idea, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

rather clear that we are infringing on people's rights to keep and bear arms.

That much is pretty simple.

[Broken Arrow]

I completely agree that the issues surrounding gun debates are anything but simple. If fact, I think that's the only honest conclusion people who have studied the issues can draw.

However, my perspective is that of a citizen who is legally qualified to conceal carry. And let me elaborate that I am someone who has spent a lot of time, energy, and money over the years to make sure that I am as safe and competent as possible.

In fact, I've shot 100% on state-level law enforcement qualifications before, good enough to qualify as an instructor. I have also shot 100% on my conceal carry qualifications. Twice. I was also the first to finish my written exam, and scored 100% on that as well. I also have training in defensive firearms and active shooter. Oh, and I also passed state and federal background checks. Twice.

And yet, despite having jumped through all these hoops, and demonstrating my ability to be safe around firearms, I still can not carry into a movie theater for example, or go into Applebee's with my family. This is new, but I can now walk through the park with it.

Some things, I do understand. For example, if I plan on drinking, then I completely understand about not being armed. I basically don't do anything with a gun that I wouldn't do with a car.

But then, I don't drink either. The only real alcohol I've ever had was half a wine cooler back in New Years Eve of 1999. I didn't like it. Still, no Applebees....

In a way, I realize I'm just whining, but I also think that people like myself isn't the real problem. The real problem are those who do not want to spend the time training, are less than safe, are not willing to abide by the law, and are even criminal. And if that's the case, then why are people who are legal like me held back by certain limitations designed for people who will not follow the law anyways?

That is why I shared that video. I'm glad that, from my perspective, Tennessee has finally realized that responsible citizens are not the threat to karaoke bars, and I am hoping that similar attitudes will prevail throughout the rest of the nation....

Unfortunately, I'm also not going to hold my breath.

[wincrasher]

For the life of me, I can't see why anyone would need to have a gun with them in a movie theater, an Applebees or whatever. Why not in Church, the drugstore...how about a hospital or an old age home? You are watching way too much TV if you feel unsafe when you go out an about.

I've traveled all over the US - big cities and rural communities and never, ever felt like I needed a gun. Laws are there because not everyone knows how to behave. It takes only one idiot to create a catastrophy. The fewer guns out there on the street, the better.

If you don't feel safe in a certain place, don't go there! You really going to have a shoot-out with some crack head because he want's your purse? Really?

I can see having a right to own a gun and keep it in your home. It's a whole other matter to walk around with it and go into public places. You may be trained in how to fire a weapon, but not how to react in a crime scene or respond to drug crazed perps - leave that to the pros.

[zakity]

Dude... Don't you watch the news. People have walked into churches and started shooting. People have walked into fast food places and started shooting. People have walked into malls and started shooting. You never know when some crazy is going to start shooting a place up.

I want to be able to defend myself and my children from the bad guys. I put my children in carseats when they were little. I put them in helmets to ride their bikes. I have taught them stranger danger. It is my job as their parent to protect them. Why wouldn't I want to defend them from people who want to hurt them with a gun?

Oh yeah, you need to move out by me. They are reducing the county police force from 17 to 5 (one of which is the main sheriff guy, so only four real people on patrol). They already don't have anyone on duty between 10 pm and 10 am.

So, when someone breaks into my house, what am I going to do? Call the sheriff dept? **snort** I don't think so. They already have a 15 min response time now. I know, I will just tell the bad guy to sit down and wait because I called 911 and they are on the way. Maybe I can serve him tea while we are waiting. Oh! Better yet! I will yell "stop, or I will yell stop again".

**snort** I can imagine in my house. There would be a loud **clickclick** from the boys' room (unloaded shotgun). And, DH and I would be in a fight over who gets the one in the bedroom (really need to get a second weapon in there).



Side note:
The boys have an unloaded weapon because they said that they heard someone sneaking around their window one night. So, we put that in there so they can "click" it if they hear anything again. Everyone knows the sound of a shotgun "clicking". The bad guys won't know that it is unloaded. And, DH and I have the loaded ones in our room which is right next door to their room. It made them feel safer. We also told them that they can use it as a club if someone comes in through the window. Well, if someone comes in through the window, they will die trying to get through the mess that they call their room, but that is another story.

[GREENBACK]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

You may be trained in how to fire a weapon, but not how to react in a crime scene or respond to drug crazed perps - leave that to the pros.

Many of the citizens with ccw permits are former military people that sometimes have as much or more experience with deadly force scenarios than any cop and are very capable of handling these situations. I am one of the "pros" you describe and am very good at investigating crime scenes after they happen which is almost always the case when you call the cops. When a violent crime happens, count yourself as very lucky if a cop is right there to save you. Violent crimes happen in a matter of seconds and the best police response is usually minutes. I wouldn't bet my life on someone else saving me.

Carrying a weapon isn't for everyone but every law abiding citizen should have the option to arm themselves in places they frequent. As was stated above, shootings have occured in numerous public places and the only option was for people to hide and let some derelict decide their fate while the cops decided on a gameplan. If you had one or ten armed and competent persons in many of these scenarios I have no doubt that the outcome would have been quite different.

When the wolves show up you're gonna need a sheepdog to prevent the slaughter and it probably won't be someone with a badge.

[Broken Arrow]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

For the life of me, I can't see why anyone would need to have a gun with them in a movie theater, an Applebees or whatever. Why not in Church, the drugstore...how about a hospital or an old age home? You are watching way too much TV if you feel unsafe when you go out an about.

If I had a nickel every time someone mentioned that....

I was kind of afraid it could devolve into this, but I am still going to try not to let it get too out of hand.

Suffice to say, if you feel that your environment is safe, then I am happy to hear it. However, the environment is made safe because there are people who are trained, have worked, and have even sacrificed to make it so. Not because it is, has been, or will always be safe. I'm sorry, but human nature does not work that way.

Oh, and in case you're wondering, I AM one of the pros. Well, was. I don't do it as a career anymore, and there's no money to be made teaching firearms.

If you ever need someone like us, we will still be there for you. Even if you don't believe in us, or see what we see and do what we do.

[mom-from-missouri]

I'm with BA on this one, who if he got a 100% on his score, well, he out scored by 97%.

I too have my carry permit, as does my husband.

Why carry in church? Have you not read of the idots who go into a church and fire? Drug stores? Where is a crazed addict goin to go? I used to own 1/3 of one and over the years 2 times an addict came in for drugs, once with a gun and once with a knife. Yes, the gun was loaded.

I feel safer going into eat with my brother. I can't carry if they have it posted, but he can--he is a federal officer. And, he has had to use it while on off duty, so its a good thing they do carry them off duty. The bad guys go everywhere.

I took classes and I grew up around firearms. My kids have taken classes and know how to use 9mm, 12 g, 22, 410, 20 and more. We practice & the kids take firearms in 4H. We can shoot a coyotte from a pretty good distance on the first shot. (before someone starts on that, we farm and this county is over run with them--they are even getting into trash barrells in town and the city & conservation office are trying to reduce the numbers. if you ever came home and scared one off after it just killed a calf you would understand)

People thought the movie with Patrick Swazwe in it years ago (wolverines??) was something that could never happen, but look at 9-11. What if they had come in on the ground? Then everyone would want our guns for themselves.

911 has a 7 minute response time IF he is in our end of the county. 27 minutes if he is at the other end (from 11p-7 am we have ONE law officer). Our family are volunteer fire fighters. When the law is busy, they call us for mutual aid. (you can break up an outdoor fight real fast with a fire hose full blast). For this reason, many rural firemen also have a carry permit.

[zakity]

People thought the movie with Patrick Swazwe in it years ago (wolverines??) was something that could never happen, but look at 9-11. What if they had come in on the ground? Then everyone would want our guns for themselves.

Wasn't that movie "Red Dawn"?

[GREENBACK]

Originally Posted by RedThunderBird

The more I study how this nation came to be , the more I love it === the foresight of these individuals was , and still is amazing [ mere words could not describe it ] I was raised in Spain , and the idea that some one could legally own a weapon , outside the armed forces , police or security is an aberration to them or most of them , and yet the terrorist group of eta they get their weapons easily , and use them without any remorse or with a finesse that Al Capone would have envy , and just to give them an incentive [ like if they needed one ] according to the constitution of Spain , the maximum time any of these beasts could ever do is 30 years , not matter how terrible their crime was , in jails with all the ' civilized ' conveniences like T.V among other things . but going back to the second amendment to the constitution , it makes a great deal for law abiding citizens that do not want to be intimidated by criminals , and if they need to use a weapon in self defense ==== they will not go for the cell phone , but for their weapon , and let me tell you I rather be in a place that would have individuals with that alternative , only in America ======"Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you." ~ Benjamin Franklin.

You bring a great perspective to this discussion Red Thunderbird with your life experiences in a foreign land. So many americans have zero idea of what a socialistic and repressive goverment is like. We slowly allow these concepts to invade our lives because it's the easy route. "Let the gov't give us everything for free and provide absolute security no matter how many of our freedoms are stripped away".

My sincere hope is that one day we don't wake up and discover that the "thief in the night" that is a gov't like you have described( your description of Spain is mild compared to the brutality of some other countries) was welcomed in and the door was left unlocked.

I'm quite aware of the Ben Franklin statement above and unfortunately too many of us have decided to stand in line for the slaughter instead of standing up as rams and sheepdogs to the wolves. We are all responsible for ourselves first and foremost.

[Broken Arrow]

Yes, thank you for the great perspective.

I hope I don't seem critical, but I just want make it clear to people who are not pro-gun to understand that we are also not running around with guns looking to shoot someone. Lethal force is applied only as a last resort, and the rules of engagement should still conform to the law. (The law just needs to be fine-tuned. ) So, yes, I believe in the right to go for our guns, but at the same time, we also go for the cellphones.

[PrincessPerky]

Originally Posted by Broken Arrow

If you ever need someone like us, we will still be there for you. Even if you don't believe in us, or see what we see and do what we do.

I for one am glad of folk like you, I don't carry concealed nor otherwise, but I see the need for a well armed citizenry. I just happen to have a memory like a sieve and lousy coordination, so no sense me carrying . (I would lose the darn thing long before I ever needed it! Not to mention have to reread the manual to figure out how to load it)

Though with the way things are going these days.....

[jIM_Ohio]

Originally Posted by Broken Arrow

Yes, thank you for the great perspective.

I hope I don't seem critical, but I just want make it clear to people who are not pro-gun to understand that we are also not running around with guns looking to shoot someone. Lethal force is applied only as a last resort, and the rules of engagement should still conform to the law. (The law just needs to be fine-tuned. ) So, yes, I believe in the right to go for our guns, but at the same time, we also go for the cellphones.

There might be a gun/cell phone combo coming soon, then someone answers the phone, shoots themselves in the head, and that idea gets squashed.

LOL

My issue with guns is that while a vast majority of gun owners are probably law abiding citizens, there are a significant number of people which have them and fill up the news reel in every city every night.

My position is guns do not need to be eliminated (eliminating them is an option I would favor, but not the only option), a better step would be to restrict and regulate their sales and distribution (much more than they are restricted now). For example no need for gun shows (these make the news way too often) and I am sure there are other restrictions (ammunition, waiting periods) which can also be improved and enforced better.

[GREENBACK]

Originally Posted by jIM_Ohio

There might be a gun/cell phone combo coming soon, then someone answers the phone, shoots themselves in the head, and that idea gets squashed.

LOL

My issue with guns is that while a vast majority of gun owners are probably law abiding citizens, there are a significant number of people which have them and fill up the news reel in every city every night.

My position is guns do not need to be eliminated (eliminating them is an option I would favor, but not the only option), a better step would be to restrict and regulate their sales and distribution (much more than they are restricted now). For example no need for gun shows (these make the news way too often) and I am sure there are other restrictions (ammunition, waiting periods) which can also be improved and enforced better.

The ideas you are presenting seem to be logical on the surface but the problem is the criminal element doesn't give a damn about laws. If you eliminate gun shows you only push things underground . Those that want an illegal item won't go away because it's no longer openly available.

There is a mountain of laws in place to enforce gun laws. Gun laws mostly work against law abiding people. If you make it illegal to manufacture firearms they will be illegaly imported the way drugs are. They are already "restricted" to law abiding citizens( the federal form you fill out) who don't generally commit gun crimes. Most guns used in the majority of criminal acts are obtained illegally and that will continue to be the case. Remeber alcohol prohibition? that gave us the mob as we know it. Drugs? they are completely illegal but there's no shortage of that around. Make guns illegal...only the criminals will have them. Might give AL-Quida something else illegal to funnel onto american streets.

[jIM_Ohio]

Originally Posted by GREENBACK

The ideas you are presenting seem to be logical on the surface but the problem is the criminal element doesn't give a damn about laws. If you eliminate gun shows you only push things underground . Those that want an illegal item won't go away because it's no longer openly available.

There is a mountain of laws in place to enforce gun laws. Gun laws mostly work against law abiding people. If you make it illegal to manufacture firearms they will be illegaly imported the way drugs are. They are already "restricted" to law abiding citizens( the federal form you fill out) who don't generally commit gun crimes. Most guns used in the majority of criminal acts are obtained illegally and that will continue to be the case. Remeber alcohol prohibition? that gave us the mob as we know it. Drugs? they are completely illegal but there's no shortage of that around. Make guns illegal...only the criminals will have them. Might give AL-Quida something else illegal to funnel onto american streets.

Ahh, but right now if you have a gun you are not breaking the law... so its tough to tell good guys from bad guys, because both can carry guns.

If carrying a gun was illegal or owning one/possessing one was illegal, it is easier to identify the criminal element.

Pushing something "deeper underground" or giving al quada another way to "attack" us is not a reason to do or not to do something.

If something eliminates deaths, it needs to be considered, whether it was given as a right or not.

For example, if it was made legal to own and use a gun on your private property only, that is OK, but using a gun on public property or another person's property was illegal- that is a good step (to me) because you can "bear arms", but cannot do it anywhere around me.

[GREENBACK]

Jim,

I choose to carry a gun because I choose to provide for my own personal safety. Criminals will carry and use their guns regardless of any laws in place. If they can be certain you are unarmed you're that much easier to prey upon. Thank god for the second ammendment that allows me to protect myself.

You only need look no further in your area than "Over The Rhine". I'm pretty sure the people shot there daily and the ones doing the shooting aren't too concerned about gun laws. If I was a buisness owner in this area or someone frequenting this area for legitimate purposes after dark, I would certainly wish to be armed.

If you think people around you aren't armed(illegally) even with some little stupid sign outside you're very mistaken. Again, the laws you propose have no effect on those they intend to target. Would you disarm the cops? They carry guns because they know that, dispite a book full of gun laws, the majority of hardened and violent criminals don't care what's legal or illegal.

I'm not trying to change your mind on gun laws and doubt that I could. I do know a good deal about laws and the criminal element though, and can tell you that more laws and restrictions will do nothing to stop violence.

I think it is important that we don't turn guns into the next big illegal item. We have little control over things that criminals really want. We have lost the war on drugs whether anyone wants to admit it or not. We will create a whole new criminal enterprise with a prohibition on firearms. More than just my opinion.

[swanson719]

While I definitely support CCW's and such, I also think it appropriate to carry OC pepper spray if you're going to carry concealed. There are situations where the threat of force such as showing a weapon can be a deterrent, but that can also quickly devolve into something worse. Spraying someone with a good concentration of OC often will do the trick without having any lasting affect in most cases, and what affect there is is not comparable to a gun shot wound. It also shields you from the criminal filing attempted murder charges in todays society of sue everyone.

I have no problem shooting someone in self defense - but I think in fairness we ought to have the responsibility as gun owners to use the minimum force necessary to defend ourselves. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, but on the other hand, a gun in a knife fight is a little over kill.

[GREENBACK]

Originally Posted by swanson719

a gun in a knife fight is a little over kill.

A gun in a knife fight isn't "overkill". Whether it's a knife, a brick, a bottle or something else, it qualifies as a deadly weapon depending on the perpetrators intent and how you can articulate that intent. Most law agencies have established that the reactionary distance for an edged weapon, such as a knife, is 21 feet! That basically means that you should be prepared to react with deadly force at that distance. Many have been killed or seriously injured that did not.

The disadvantage that you are at as a defender is that you're reacting to an aggressor. This gives that person a decided edge since they aren't concerned with the consequences of their actions and don't hesitate to make their move. A split second of indecision by you can cost you or others dearly.

In law enforcement there is something known as the "force continuum". This basically is a guide for police to meet force with force on an escalating scale. This is why you see cops with a belt full of accesories( OC, stun gun baton ,cuffs , flashlight and two fully loaded extra mags. The important part is to determine what stage you're at in using the required force. Many CCW carriers should study this carefully as they don't recieve nearly the training the police do in this. Remember, if you're carrying a gun it is always a gunfight. If someone disables you they very well may take your gun and it will certainly seem reasonable to have used your gun in that "knife fight".