why are people against socialized medicine?

[Goldy1]

I am not sure if I am for or against it, and I am asking the question seriously. Other than the canned "keep gov. out of our business" response, why are people against it?

I hear people complain of waits and how to pay for it, but frankly I would rather wait for a procedure than have to overpay for it.
It also burns me how "cash/no insurance prices" are triple insurance contracted rates. Ok so you can talk them into accepting less (I have heard)but why should one have to deal with it?



Frankly, my options were bad when looking to buy my own heathcare being healthy;pay a lot for coverage I likely won't use that gives me office visit and rx care or pay a lot less for er care only that leaves me unable to see a dr. if I do get sick.
If I was unhealthy I can see paying a lot for health insurance.
I dont' expect it free. I just expect better options and a lot less confusion.
I also think things are so screwed b/c when you buy the insurance u are afraid to use it b/c you might get more diagnoses that will render you uninsurable in the future.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

xxxxxxxxx

[Goldy1]

I dont' have acid reflux myself but know people who do. It's b/c a last resort when medicine doesn't work is surgery on the flap in your throat to prevent acid from coming up. It's just an example of far things can go.

[kork13]

I can't intelligently speak to the issue myself, but I know we have some Canadians here on the forums, they would probably be the best source for useful opinions of universal healthcare.

For what I know, the problems that I hear most frequently are: 1) Long waits to see a doctor, whether for routine visits or emergency care (on the order of 3-4 weeks to get an appointment); 2) Poor quality of service (doctors can't spend adequate time on any individual patient); and 3) The exorbitant cost to the government, which in turn leads to exorbitant taxes on the citizenry and/or slashed federal funding in other areas.

[Inkstain82]

Originally Posted by Goldy1

I am not sure if I am for or against it, and I am asking the question seriously. Other than the canned "keep gov. out of our business" response, why are people against it?

I think this pretty much covers it.

Some people have an emotional bent toward more government involvement, and some toward less. Our minds make up a whole lot of rationalizations for why we're right on each, but really it just comes down to inherent preference.

[tripods68]

I think the new incentives has to be on the small businesses who have affordability issues. Provide them some sort of "tax breaks" that encourages owners to provide health to all of its employees.

Make the government health care program compete against the HMOs & PPOs plans.

Reduced Medicare eligibility program to age 55 instead.

Increase gov't subsidy on COBRA plans like 75% for at least 2 years.

Increase doctor's reimbursement rate.

SCHIP coverage 100% max age 18.

[myrdale]

I am not fully informed on the subject, but here are a few thoughts for you.

A government big enough to give you anything can take everything.

Theres no such thing as a free lunch

So what a wonderful thing, you will go to the doctor, pick up your meds, and the government will pick up your tab. But you see, nothing in life is free. The government can not simply create the money, they will have to pay this with MY tax dollars. I say MY and not OURS because people on welfare, illegal aliens, people who cheat and lie on their taxes will be getting free health care. I will have to pick up the bill.

The government will ration health care.

I remember hearing an argument several years about about how the elderly were pro socialized health care, because as they grow older, their health care needs increased. The ironic thing is, who will the government get the most return out of? Given the choice of an 80 year old with a failing heart, or a 25 year old needing a kidney transplant? Why should the government treat the 80 year old, extending their life when that person does not contribute back to the system, only draining the medicare and social security systems. Instead they would treat the 25 year old who has years of taxes ahead of him to pay back his surgery.

What will happen with your private records.

Sure it is a bit of a conspiricy theory, but no longer will your records only be stored securely at your local doctor's office. Now the government will have all your personal health information at their finger tips.

The government will decide what a procedure will cost.

If I need a filling in a tooth, the dentist will charge $150. It does not matter that my insurance will only pay $90. If I want Dr Choate to do this filling, I will have to pony up the $60 difference. Now, I do have choices, if I want to find someone cheaper I can. If I want to find a different insurance company I can. But I believe it is a fair enough cost for the procedure so I pay it. If the dentist decides he wants to charge $250, I'd go else where. It is just simple economics, he charges the most that the market will bear.

Now if the government says a filling will cost $90. The dentist has two options. First accept the $90 price and perform the filling. Second cut back on his services to accomodate the lower price. No tooth cleaning, no free toothbrush.

You don't deserve anything in life.

Today I heard an add on the radio, "Come buy our product, you deserve it."

The government just passed some whooohaa appology for slavery, people were talking all these people who deserved a mule and 40 acres, or basically, the government should write a check to anyone who is black to make up for something that happened 200 years go.

A guy who thinks he should be paid extra for doing his job.

The woman who knocked on my door with 6 kids asking for money. She couldnt afford the first one, I think she knew where they came from, why did she keep poping them out!?

Regardless of which of these you fall into, I don't believe anyone owes you jack squat. I believe your only owed thee things in life. A fair days wages for a fair days work. Justice for a transgression against you. Protection of the country from invadors and your Constitutional rights.

How great are VA Hospitals!!
Well?? How great are they? Who runs them anyhow?

[akrogers]

For me, simply put- it's just another step towards a socialist government.

[Goldy1]

These are good valid responses that helped me understand the other side of the issue. I know there are pros to it too.
I live in Michigan and so if you ar ento from here, it would shock you, I say shock you how many Windsor license plates I see at the local stores and malls. I have heard things cost more to buy in Canada, but not sure if this is tied to taxes. I almost flipped when I bought some things in Canada and saw the tax rate..I am digressing though. So they pay for it, but they get it.

[disneysteve]

I am not arguing in favor of government health care, but some of your points aren't really valid since they already exist under the current system if you replace the word "government" with "insurance company."

Originally Posted by myrdale

The government will ration health care.

Most insurance plans have some type of prior authorization system in place. If I want to order a CT scan or MRI on my patient, I need to call the insurance company and justify my reasons. If the company says no, the patient doesn't get the test - period. That's rationing.

That said, I think rationing is necessary. We can't provide endless care to every patient regardless of cost and expect to have a sustainable system.

What will happen with your private records.

Your records aren't private now. Your insurance company has access to them anytime. If you are on Medicare, that insurance company is the US Government.

The government will decide what a procedure will cost.

If I need a filling in a tooth, the dentist will charge $150. It does not matter that my insurance will only pay $90. If I want Dr Choate to do this filling, I will have to pony up the $60 difference.

Insurance companies have done this forever. They have a fee schedule. If a doctor wants to accept the insurance plan, he must agree to honor the fee schedule. So if Dr. Choate wants to participate in the USA Dental plan, he would be obligated to accept $90 for that filling. If he wants to charge $150, he would have to open a cash-only practice and not accept the government plan.

I have dental insurance now through Blue Cross and that's how it works. My dentist accepts whatever BC pays even though it is less than he would normally charge. When he agreed to participate in my insurance plan, he agreed to accept their fee schedule.

[boosami]

The current US system does not add up for me when you compare it to pretty much all other modern nations. I'm not necessarily for socialized healthcare, but obviously something needs to be adjusted because what we have is a mess.

1. The US is one of the very few modern nations that does not have a socialized healthcare system.
2. The US is routinely ranked lower (by the WHO) than many socialized programs by the for overall quality of healthcare provided.
3. The US system is already the most expensive in the world, and not every citizen is covered. Socialized programs by other nations are less expensive, and cover everyone.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by boosami

The US is routinely ranked lower (by the WHO) than many socialized programs by the for overall quality of healthcare provided.

This is true, but it is not necessary to have socialized care in order to lower costs and improve outcomes. Read the article in this week's Time magazine about the Mayo Clinic.

[simpleyme]

I am not sure about any of it,but I do hate when they talk about who does and does not have health insurance,health insurance does not give you healthcare,i want health care!
I have health insurance but very little health care as if you go to the dr lord knows they will charge you triple what you expected then insurance pays half what you expected!

the idea of the government somehow getting in on the insurance scam does not sit right,i wish they would open clinics providing the basic health care to people and forget about throwing money to all the inbetween people who get rich of these schemes

[MonkeyMama]

The U.S. system has some serious issues. I am all for reform.

But I have a few issues with socialized medicine.

ONE - it could end up costing us more in the end. HIGH taxes. As someone said - no one gets a free lunch.

TWO - I know WAY too many people in Canada and they are not happy with their healthcare experiences at all. The only good thing they can say about it is that it is "free," but they pay WAY more taxes than I do (back to #1).

I read an article a while back that the U.S. system rated about the same as Canada as far as quality. But you know, good luck finding a doctor there in the first place (which is their main issue).

Thirdly, yeah, don't have much faith in the government to make it more efficient.

------------

It was interesting because when I was pregnant with my first child, I was hanging around the pregnancy message boards, and it sure was an earful about various medical systems. The Canadians had it the worst - many were lucky to see a doctor for the first time in their 4th month. U.S. military didn't have it much better. The U.S. citizens mostly had 2-3 times as many appointments and ultrasounds as I did. It was ludicrous. I actually have private insurance (expensive, for sure) but it is a non-profit HMO and during that time frame I REALLY came to appreciate how efficient they were. IT was very middle of the road compared to the 2 extremes. I would like to see healthcare head in that direction. You don't need to see the doctor every week and have 5 ultrasounds for a HEALTHY pregnancy. But it is nice to get in for the care that you do need.

Also, I don't know ANYONE who got out in less than 3 days after a childbirth. I literally only had to stay 12 hours after both my children were born. They did not push me out at all - it was my decision since my baby and I made a checklist (absolutely no issues basically). I knew of the rule and the nurses actually tried to talk me into staying. But hell if I wanted to pay for another night in the hospital - I hated it there - just wanted to be home. The baby had a doctor appointment the next day, etc. 12 hours may seem extreme to some, but I don't know why I would be forced to stay in a hospital an additional 48 hours when our stats were 100%. Again, something more middle of the road and logical would be preferred.

[akrogers]

MonkeyMama, your post was really insightful, I hadn't even thought about the issue in terms of planned medical visits.

I do have a question that maybe someone can address and help me to understand a bit better. I have been reading in various places that there are less people who are seeking to become full-fledged MDs with the upcoming possible shift toward socialization (as if dealing with managed care isn't nightmare enough). Would it be fair to believe that if we do go to socialized healthcare, then there will be a continuing trend towards less people going into the medical profession to become MDs? Will doctors then be officially considered "government employees"?

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by simpleyme

health insurance does not give you healthcare

This is a very important point, and the powers that be are finally starting to realize this. I could give loads of examples, like the insurance company with whom the nearest participating dermatologist is about 70 miles from here. Or the fact that it takes a minimum of 3 months to get an appointment with an endocrinologist under any insurance plan in this area. So having insurance coverage does not guarantee easy and prompt access to care.

The other issue is that there needs to be far greater emphasis on prevention. What we do in this country is disease management, not health care. We wait until someone is sick and then spend boatloads of money to treat them when it would be phenomenally cheaper to prevent the illness in the first place. I've read that 75% of health care spending is to treat chronic, preventable disease and 40% of premature deaths are due to lifestyle choices and preventable diseases.

[Inkstain82]

Originally Posted by MonkeyMama

The U.S. system has some serious issues. I am all for reform.

But I have a few issues with socialized medicine.

ONE - it could end up costing us more in the end. HIGH taxes. As someone said - no one gets a free lunch.

Absolutely. I fully support socialized health care, but anybody who tries to tell you it won't mean raising taxes is lying or delusional. That said, if done right, the cost of health care as a whole for society can go down. I'd rather pay 5% more in taxes and get care than pay 10% of my net income.

TWO - I know WAY too many people in Canada and they are not happy with their healthcare experiences at all. The only good thing they can say about it is that it is "free," but they pay WAY more taxes than I do (back to #1).

I think this is cognitive dissonance. I live close to the border and I support socialized health care. I could pull up a list of people a mile long that love their Canadian system and would never, ever want to live under the American system.

Canadians are just like anyone else: They all disagree on things. I think both sides will find lots of people who agree with them up North.

I read an article a while back that the U.S. system rated about the same as Canada as far as quality. But you know, good luck finding a doctor there in the first place (which is their main issue).

Depends on who does the rankings and what they are ranking.

For high-end care, the U.S. is the undisputed leader.
For ordinary, day to day stuff, the U.S. is middle of the pack.
For breadth of coverage, the U.S. is near the bottom (among comparable countries).

Thirdly, yeah, don't have much faith in the government to make it more efficient.

Funny, I feel the same way about corporate America

[Inkstain82]

Originally Posted by akrogers

MonkeyMama, your post was really insightful, I hadn't even thought about the issue in terms of planned medical visits.

I do have a question that maybe someone can address and help me to understand a bit better. I have been reading in various places that there are less people who are seeking to become full-fledged MDs with the upcoming possible shift toward socialization (as if dealing with managed care isn't nightmare enough). Would it be fair to believe that if we do go to socialized healthcare, then there will be a continuing trend towards less people going into the medical profession to become MDs? Will doctors then be officially considered "government employees"?

It would require positive government action to avoid, yes. You can't expect people to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical tuition for a $30k/year government job.

But there's a problem with the free-market system in this area as well: We have way too many specialists and not nearly enough general practitioners. Canada had the same problem, and through government actions they are bringing the percentage of general practitioners up.

With or without socialized medicine, I firmly believe that government-subsidized medical schools would be one of the most cost-effective options for both bringing up the standard of care and bringing down the costs.

Now as for whether they would be government employees, that would depend on the plan. A lot of what people fearfully call "socialized medicine" isn't that. I can't imagine the U.S. going to an actual socialized medicine plan in the next 20 years, let alone anytime soon.

The most likely endgame is what is called a "single-payer" system. In this system, all the doctors continue working for themselves and hospitals. However, when it is time to bill, there are no insurance companies, only a massive government program.

[tripods68]

Opps...

[tripods68]

Originally Posted by MonkeyMama

The U.S. system has some serious issues. I am all for reform.

But I have a few issues with socialized medicine.

ONE - it could end up costing us more in the end. HIGH taxes. As someone said - no one gets a free lunch.

TWO - I know WAY too many people in Canada and they are not happy with their healthcare experiences at all. The only good thing they can say about it is that it is "free," but they pay WAY more taxes than I do (back to #1).

I read an article a while back that the U.S. system rated about the same as Canada as far as quality. But you know, good luck finding a doctor there in the first place (which is their main issue).

Thirdly, yeah, don't have much faith in the government to make it more efficient.

Your point is well-taken.


The US household spend the highest amongst all industrial nation when it comes to health care spending per household around $7K a year. Yet the US rank 37health care quality behind Morocco as I remember. Yah...that's MOROCCO.

Here's some statistic spent on healtch care as a % of household income (RAND survey).

$20K or Less - 15.5%
$20K - $49K - 7.2%
$50K - $69K - 5.1%
$70K or more - 3.0%

Health Care spending as a % of Income by Age (based 2006 survey RAND)

Under age 35 - 2.7%
Ages 35 - 54 - 3.3%
Ages 55 - 64 - 5.5%
Ages 65 or older - 11.4%

Assuming you have a job with employer that provide health care of course. We consider ourselve lucky. But most Americans cannot afford to buy private insurance coverages or even qualify due to existing health conditions. Most small business owners which make up about 2/3 of this country working population cannot afford health insurance for its employees. That's a problem. We need to provide incentive tax incentives to all business owners.

Majority of working population (about two-third) live under the poverty level if you factor in # of kids per household, credit card debts, personal loans, mortgages, student loans, etc. I haven't even mention illegals aliens and the staggering unemployment in this country 9%. Heck, California alone has 5 million undocumented illegals which by the way the state of have spent 5 billion in insuring. These aren't guys don't even pay taxes yet we spent billions. We have 11.9% in unemployment and a bankrupt state operating in fumes.

The debate should no longer be about socialist medicine. I think we can go behind this arguments and try to solve this problem with real facts and numbers. I voted Republican (McCain and i'm proud to be one) But am for a real Health Care ReFORM.

If we can spend on average $7K yearly on healt care cost, surely we can demand better health care quality without sacrificing "wait time", stiffle competitions without excess taxing.