What's wrong with our society?

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

I'm probably not seeing the situation the same in my mind's eye as are you, because it is hard for me to see that as a spanking appropriate situation. It is hard for me to imagine letting the 2 year old go five times toward a dangerous door. If one just does not let the 2 year old go there repeatedly, one won't have to escalate to spanking to make the point.

Was this law permitting jailing for assault by spanking passed after this happened to your friend? It sounds as if she did not even get charged in court, much less taken to jail or her child taken away. Perhaps they did not see any reasonable case that an assault had taken place. If her child has been reported as possibly needing protection but you disagreed, wasn't the outcome what you would have hoped for?

[PrincessPerky]

In general I avoid the whole spank or not debate..because of this sort of situation..one person wonders just what sort of leash would be needed to keep a very curious toddler in a seat, while another wonders why it is so hard.

I have both the kind of kid that needs MAJOR reinforcement and I have one that is pretty compliant..easily distracted from danger (not to mention likes to listen.)

Not knowing the exact situation I cannot say weather a coloring book or toy would have sufficed..I can hazard a guess that removing the kid completely wasn't an option, she said 'public office' generally we don't go to public offices for fun..not like this was a restaurant or play center and mom didn't want to give up 'fun'..maybe it was for bill paying or DMV or whatever..these kinds of things need taken care of, and no not all of us have better places to put kids during the time.

Like I said if my one kid wanted that door a firm "No" and a distraction would suffice, if the other kid wanted it, I would no sooner pick up the pen to fill out whatever form in triplicate the 'public office' needed than he would be right back to sneaking out of the chair....I am not a terrible parent to one kid and good one to the other, the kids are just plain different.

Now I can see the situation where a swat would be wrong, and I can replay the scene where a simple swat would be a useful fix. Again we do not know the total situation.

The idea that not going to jail for this incidence made it no big deal is missing the hassle and worry and fear involved when an official comes to your door threatening to take your children away...not only did you have a stressed out day of no one listening while you had to do some annoying govt business you have someone telling you you are a terrible parent for NOT letting your kid play with a dangerous door (a door leading to where? ever lose a kid behind a door in less than 5 seconds?)

The interference of govt officials hits very close to home... if I do not register my son next year there will come a cop with a gun to ask why my 7 year old is not in school..... Yes I am serious, it has happened before, and can happen even if I do register and someone sees my kid out and decides to call CYS..after all to the average American "kids belong in classrooms".

I am not saying CYS doesn't serve a useful purpose, there are cases of teachers, leaders, drs and such finding legitimate reasons for abuse and calling in the system to try and help. I am just saying any call should be made based on a big danger to a child, and the occasional swat is not a big danger...constant broken limbs (unrelated to public sports), burn marks, withdrawn child and no medical help being offered, ect, these are a MAJOR problem...

swatting is closer in 'pain' to a time out, or missing dinner. Time outs can be abused (5-10 minutes is a good cool down, banishment for days at a time is neglect) just as skipping meals (one meal wont hurt, lots is neglect) Spanking can easily be abused..a swat on a diapered bottom seems to connect the pain = bad for some kids, major hitting, shaking, twisting, use of burns, cutting, these are major abuse and need the attention of an offical.

Not that I generally use skipping meals as a punishment, nor do I use a spanking if other options work, but I do see these items as 'gray'. I know plenty of folk who hate time outs (my favorite form of discipline) ... some see it as pointless others see it as abuse, or even the opposite of the 'right thing to do'. all these theories have valid arguments... and all parents have to pick the one that makes the most sense with the children they have. (for example my youngest doesn't respond well to time outs...)

As a society we have polarized so many things that are really a personal choice.. unproven to be right one way or another, yet many feel the need to force their own side on others. If you can connect emotion to the subject you can get everyone up in arms. Yet with many issues the 'terrible problem' talked of is not often the normal situation.

BTW physically restraining a child has lead to calls to cys as well... ("let go mommy your hurting me"-never mind that mommy is keeping kid from running into the street..the call of a hurt child sends all to worry)

[cicy33]

Actually you said it quite well! Spanking is a choice within families but I don't like people telling me I can't. I have four step kids now. 2 of them listen very well and 2 are a little hard headed. Of the final two the youngest is the most hard headed. It has taken a swat here and there to bring him in line. Time outs are a joke to him. he doesn't care. take away things, he doesn't care. but a firm well timed swat is priceless. he does not like that. and he straightens up. Of course these days they are less and less as he grows older. But the point of this is if there are no consequences when our children misbehave then they think they can get away with everything.

[cicy33]

Originally Posted by Joan.of.the.Arch

I'm probably not seeing the situation the same in my mind's eye as are you, because it is hard for me to see that as a spanking appropriate situation. It is hard for me to imagine letting the 2 year old go five times toward a dangerous door. If one just does not let the 2 year old go there repeatedly, one won't have to escalate to spanking to make the point.

Was this law permitting jailing for assault by spanking passed after this happened to your friend? It sounds as if she did not even get charged in court, much less taken to jail or her child taken away. Perhaps they did not see any reasonable case that an assault had taken place. If her child has been reported as possibly needing protection but you disagreed, wasn't the outcome what you would have hoped for?

Actually this happened about 15 years ago. So yes, it was after that. and as said above, have you tried corralling an active 2 year old?! Sometimes a swat is necessary. And as stated she removed him repeatedly, it wasn't like she was letting him do it. The office then was very small and it just didn't take long for him to head back to it. Was she supposed to hold him screaming in her lap cuz he might or might not do it again? There were toys provided that they could play with and she was trying to distract him with those. If you do have children and they misbehave is it because you let them? Of course not. They just do it. and if they found no grounds for the charge then why require all the visits. It is a way to be found guilty before any evidence is even in.

[choicearizona]

What an athiest doesn't realize or agree with is the idea that Christians believe that as we remove God from our Country God's blessings also are being removed. God has blessed this country immensely. Too bad he gets no credit from the athiest community.

[sweeps]

Originally Posted by choicearizona

What an athiest doesn't realize or agree with is the idea that Christians believe that as we remove God from our Country God's blessings also are being removed.

So are you suggesting that God is punishing our country because of atheists?

[zakity]

What an athiest doesn't realize or agree with is the idea that Christians believe that as we remove God from our Country God's blessings also are being removed. God has blessed this country immensely. Too bad he gets no credit from the athiest community.

How can they give credit to something they do not believe in?

(Isn't it Athiests that don't believe in a higher power at all?)

[Angio333]

Moral Relativism, lack of responsibility, absent fathers, and kids being sheltered from failure.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by Angio333

Moral Relativism, lack of responsibility, absent fathers, and kids being sheltered from failure.

I hear you. I wish we could turn back the clock.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by Angio333

kids being sheltered from failure.

This is a great point. This trend drives me nuts. The powers that be have worked to remove competition from all aspects of a kid's life. They play games and don't keep score. They pick teams randomly, rather than based on skill. They make sure everyone who wants a part in the play gets one, rather than having real auditions. They grade on a Pass or Fail basis, rather than actually rating performance. We don't want little Johnny to be upset when he gets a C and Suzy gets an A. This way, they both get a Pass and feel good about themselves.

I think this does our children a huge disservice and doesn't in any way prepare them for the real world. They get out in the job market and have no clue how to compete, how to make themselves stand out, how to perform in an interview situation where they need to highight themselves.

[JanH]

I've had retiring and new school teachers tell me the parents are getting worse along with the kids. If you misbehaved in our day, you'd also have to deal with your parents' wrath. Now, the parents side with the kids. The teachers have a much harder time with kids who won't do their work or disrupt classes. They don't get disciplined at home about it. And a conference with the parents doesn't produce anything but things against the teacher and for the child. Don't get me wrong, I've known a teacher or two that I'd never have wanted my kids to have. But, overall, I think the teachers are having a tougher time in the classroom. And, I agree with the predominance of bad news everywhere. This has been a topic around our household. First we had newspapers, then radios, then television, and now satellite coverage. What used to take awhile to get to you in now in your home pronto. While that is not that bad, being informed is not a bad thing, the emphasis is almost always on the bad. And, then it is rehashed over and over and over. And, then other bad stuff is predicted and rehashed before it happens. All this negativity is mind numbing. Sometimes, I wonder if it is self fulfilling.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by JanH

I've had retiring and new school teachers tell me the parents are getting worse along with the kids. If you misbehaved in our day, you'd also have to deal with your parents' wrath. Now, the parents side with the kids.

This is SO true. Teachers can't do anything about a misbehaving child because the parents support the kid no matter what.

I have a friend who is a 3rd grade teacher. One day this year, the kids got out their bags for snack time. The teacher helped one kid, opened his little cooler and there was a cold, full can of beer in his bag. She opened the bag herself and saw the can.

Of course, the father was called. Without hearing any details, he immediately made up a story to defend the kid saying, "Oh, he didn't bring a can of beer to school. He must have seen an empty can on the ground on the way to school and picked it up and put it in his bag." The story made no sense, of course, since the can was sealed, full and cold when the teacher found it. But this is the kind of nonsense teachers face today. The parents' attitude is "My child can do no wrong, and if you accuse him of anything, I'll make sure you pay for it." There are many stories of parents suing a teacher, a school, a school district for disciplining their child.

Just recently, there was a case around here. One school made it crystal clear that for the prom, all students attending had to arrive between 7pm and 9pm. During those hours, there would be a check-in procedure at the door to make sure everyone entering belonged there. There was a bag check and other security measures. Everyone was told repeatedly that if they arrived after 9pm, they would not be admitted. The building would be locked down at that point until the end of the prom. Hundreds of kids followed the rules and arrived on time. One couple showed up at 9:30pm and wasn't allowed in. The kids had no excuse. They weren't delayed for any good reason. They made no attempt to contact anyone to let them know they'd be late. They just didn't show up on time. Their fault 100%. Rather than the parents sitting them down and saying, "Sorry guys. You really screwed up. Mabye you'll learn a lesson and be on time next time" instead they raised hell and hired a lawyer to sue the school. What does that teach the kids? That the rules apply to everyone but you?

[maat55]

I think it is a lack of trust. Parents need to except that most teachers are there to do a good job and they need to be trusted and backed by the parents. Many parents think they would be disloyal to their child to take the word of a teacher over their child. I think the chance that the child is in the wrong is much more likely than the teacher.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by maat55

I think it is a lack of trust. Parents need to except that most teachers are there to do a good job and they need to be trusted and backed by the parents. Many parents think they would be disloyal to their child to take the word of a teacher over their child. I think the chance that the child is in the wrong is much more likely than the teacher.

That might be part of it, but I think the bigger problem is that parents no longer teach their children about personal responsibility and consequences for one's actions. Of course, that is mainly because the parents no longer take personal responsibility for their own actions. People feel the rules don't apply to them and they shouldn't apply to their kids either. They don't discipline their children at home and don't think the teacher has any business disciplining them at school either.

[rob62521]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

That might be part of it, but I think the bigger problem is that parents no longer teach their children about personal responsibility and consequences for one's actions. Of course, that is mainly because the parents no longer take personal responsibility for their own actions. People feel the rules don't apply to them and they shouldn't apply to their kids either. They don't discipline their children at home and don't think the teacher has any business disciplining them at school either.

You are so right, Steve! Yet, look at our own adults. Who anymore accepts responsibility for anything? Former President Clinton twisted words saying he didn't have sex with that woman, our former Illinois governor claims he had nothing to do with the scandal of trucking and being paid off, and the list goes on. I'm not picking on any one particular political party, either. The first was a demo and the second was a repub so don't get me wrong. How refreshing to hear someone say, "Hey, I blew it and shouldn't have done that." But we don't. I can tell one of my students, "Please don't kick that other student." and that kid will look me square in the eye and deny he/she did it although I had just witnessed it. It's frightening that we, as a society, would rather make excuses than own up to stuff.

As for a couple previous posts that said that kids are not allowed to fail. Yep, right again! My own principal set the rules for a contest and when every kid didn't get a prize, she sneaked a prize to the kids who didn't do what they were supposed to do to earn it. The lesson taught to those kids was do whatever because it doesn't matter, you'll still get rewarded. Sure will be a shock when they as adults enter a contest and don't win, won't it? They'll probably sue for unfair practices or something.

[maat55]

Originally Posted by disneysteve

That might be part of it, but I think the bigger problem is that parents no longer teach their children about personal responsibility and consequences for one's actions. Of course, that is mainly because the parents no longer take personal responsibility for their own actions. People feel the rules don't apply to them and they shouldn't apply to their kids either. They don't discipline their children at home and don't think the teacher has any business disciplining them at school either.

Your right, when we were kids we didn't question that our parents and the teachers were on the same side, so we knew we had better respect our teachers. I remember the first time I played hooky, I got spanked by the principle, my big brother and my mother. I didn't do that again for about 5 years.

[disneysteve]

Originally Posted by rob62521

I can tell one of my students, "Please don't kick that other student." and that kid will look me square in the eye and deny he/she did it although I had just witnessed it. It's frightening that we, as a society, would rather make excuses than own up to stuff.

Exactly. Even when caught in the act, kids deny doing something that you just watched them do. And the parents do the same, and defend the kids when presented with the facts.

[OverSaver]

human nature, freedom of choice for starters....